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Why Has the Gay Marriage Issue Exploded ?


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Old 03-02-2013, 19:01
ShotMarvin1
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My MP is against. He's normally a good egg, but Catholics, eh?
So's mine (well the one in my home town, not where I'm at Uni). Unfortunately he's one of those REALLY loopy ones who's come out in the media to conflate gay marriage with polygamy and kids marrying. Can't wait to boot him out come 2015.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:19
ShotMarvin1
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It's a distraction so that we dont notice the benefit cuts, the council tax cuts, the hounding of the disabled to get to work, the lack of any plans to build the 3 million homes we need, in my opinion.
I disagree. Plenty of people know that the cuts are going on as well as those other issues, and many have strongly opposed them too. If it's a distraction then it's not working very well, is it?

Someone earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head (IMO) by arguing Cameron's only lending his support to it to protect his legacy. He probably knows that gay marriage, whether sooner or later, will be legalised in this country. He also probably knows that he'll be out on his arse in 2015, so he wants to get this bill passed so he'll be seen by future generations as the great reformer who legalised gay marriage. That's just me being uber-cynical about it though.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:21
Big Boy Barry
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It's exploded because Tory regressives have made it into a bigger issue than it should be.

Should gay people be discriminated against regarding marriage? No. That really should be the end of the matter

Of course, Tories who have voyeuristic tendencies and theocrats can't bear to let other adults live their own lives without interference, so they make a big deal of it, usually with my favourite conservative argument against doing anything they don't like of "why are we wasting time on (X) when the economy needs fixing?"

As if all social progress, legal equality and non-economic matters should be suspended until (laughably) the Tories have fixed the economy. If that was the case, gay people would be waiting forever.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:37
-Sid-
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Hadn't you heard? Gay people are now in charge of defining family and marriage. Heterosexual and biology ae SO passe.
What gives heterosexuals, and heterosexuals alone, the authority to 'define' & take ownership of marriage and dictate when & for whom it's acceptable given nearly half of their marriages end in divorce?

And anyway, it's not about gay people wanting to be in charge (plenty of straight people are campaigning to 'redefine' marriage too). It's about wanting equality. Why should things be set in stone? One upon a time women weren't allowed to vote and homosexuality was a considered a crime. We change laws and 'redefine' things all the time. We are a progressive society.

I just don't understand the resentment from those amongst the anti lobby who claim gay marriage would undermine their marriage. How? Surely the only people who can undermine a marriage are the people in it?
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:41
Big Boy Barry
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Gay people having the equal right to marry "redefines marriage" (another conservative buzzterm) about as much as giving women the vote redefined voting.

It doesn't. It simply gives other people the equal right to something that previously an arbitrarily favoured segment of the population exclusively had access to.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:50
lemoncurd
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Good question

Personally, I have no problem with gay marriage (although neither is it at the top of my concerns). However, I can't help but feel that the other restrictions we have on marriage are every bit as arbitrary as this one, yet mention close relatives getting married and suddenly everyone feels they have the right to impose their values on others. Its all a bit odd IMO.
Close relatives marrying is based on science, though, surely? We've known for a long time that confining the gene-pool is bad for the human race (genetic weaknesses). It's why most modern, western societies had banned it.
Polygamy is less clear - of course, many cultures do exercise it, but not in the west (with the exception of Mormons). Personally, I'd have thought that any person who has the finances or patience to have multiple wives/husbands is more than welcome to try.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:50
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They are allowed to voice their opinion, like we are allowed to voice an opinion on their bigotry.

What is being objected to is the pandering to religious sensitivity. Laws should be decided on logic and reason not "my god says says ...." Any argument along those lines should be dimissed with a wave of the hand.

That said, if someone can satisfactory demonstrate there is a god, and they know his views then that person should be at the very centre of parliament.
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:54
Big Boy Barry
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All those people demanding discrimination based on God's word would quickly change their tune if a government said "God told us to raise your taxes. So thy will be done"
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:03
lemoncurd
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All those people demanding discrimination based on God's word would quickly change their tune if a government said "God told us to raise your taxes. So thy will be done"
The US I find an even stranger case when it comes to issues like this. There, the conservative right insist that the citizens should have absolute freedom and that the government should keep its nose out of the business. They went to great lengths when setting up their country to make it clear that religion and government must be kept separate. It is not the right of the government to restrict freedom of choice (bearing arms being the obvious subject), except that if gays want the freedom to marry or mothers want the freedom to have abortions, without the government intervening, suddenly it's not right.
It seems people want to have their cake and eat it.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:16
lala
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312111

How they can stand there with pride, these old conservative men, and flaunt their discrimination is anyone's guess.

Nasty party indeed.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:16
doop
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Trust the right-wing regressives and right-wing Tories to make more of a fuss about same-sex marriage which consists of two consenting adults than the Jimmy Savile sex abuse

Makes you wonder doesn`t it sometimes.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:17
lala
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These tory members who have a problem with gay marriage should be shipped off to the states where they can join the other loonies in the Republican party.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:20
lemoncurd
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312111

How they can stand there with pride, these old conservative men, and flaunt their discrimination is anyone's guess.

Nasty party indeed.
You say that, but the last party in power didn't even put the idea to vote. (which I guess makes them even nastier?)
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:20
j4the1
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I just can't believe gay marriage even warrants a discussion. We're in 2013 and the world has saw so many life changing things both positive and negative and there's so much more important issues in the world and yet here we are in the UK and gay marriage STILL isn't recognized. It's so infuriating that it even needs a discussion. What's to discuss? Two people love each other, is that not a good enough reason?

Jeez! I despair.
I’ve concluded that at least 90 percent of the world’s conflicts are directly or indirectly related to a single establishment: Organized religion.

My recommendation to the human race is: Abolish all religious institutions.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:23
Big Boy Barry
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The US I find an even stranger case when it comes to issues like this. There, the conservative right insist that the citizens should have absolute freedom and that the government should keep its nose out of the business. They went to great lengths when setting up their country to make it clear that religion and government must be kept separate. It is not the right of the government to restrict freedom of choice (bearing arms being the obvious subject), except that if gays want the freedom to marry or mothers want the freedom to have abortions, without the government intervening, suddenly it's not right.
It seems people want to have their cake and eat it.
When conservatives argue for small government and individual freedom, they basically mean weak government and corporate freedom.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:24
lala
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You say that, but the last party in power didn't even put the idea to vote. (which I guess makes them even nastier?)
No it makes them cowards (and war mongerers at one stage- but I digress) . At least they didn't flaunt their prejudicial ignorance with loud voices and a photo opportunity.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:27
lala
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When conservatives argue for small government and individual freedom, they basically mean weak government and corporate freedom.
They argue for individual freedom. Yet they have no problem telling people who they should f**k and who warrants marriage. Funny that. Sounds like big government to me.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:32
vanzandtfan
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Close relatives marrying is based on science, though, surely? We've known for a long time that confining the gene-pool is bad for the human race (genetic weaknesses). It's why most modern, western societies had banned it.
So, to clarify, you are advocating that the state should regulate who can and cannot reproduce so as reduce the risk of genetic weaknesses? I think there's a word for that...

The truth is that if you were to use the same argument in regards to any other couple who might produce offspring with "genetic weaknesses", such as the disabled, you would have people comparing you to Hitler in the first five replies, even if the risk was far greater than relatives getting reproducing. Yet, bizarrely, as soon as anyone mentions brothers and sisters getting married, everyone becomes a card carrying Nazi ready to espouse the virtues of state enforced Eugenics!

The reality is, genetics aren't the reason brothers and sisters can't marry, it's a rationalisation. The reason is that the vast majority of people find it, well, yucky. Likewise, some people find gay marriage yucky, and come out with rationalisations, including religion, to justify it. But its all the same thing in my opinion. Legislation by yuckiness
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:34
Frood
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Never hear about it in the media?

Its constantly on the BBC website as it is one of their agendas they push down our throats, along with climate change and multi-culturism.
I think that post says more abut you than it does the BBC and your claimed 'agendas'.

Gay people having the equal right to marry "redefines marriage" (another conservative buzzterm) about as much as giving women the vote redefined voting.

It doesn't. It simply gives other people the equal right to something that previously an arbitrarily favoured segment of the population exclusively had access to.
Marriage simple means to bring together. If anything it's the religious types trying to redefine the word.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:35
habby
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Why is it being forced down our throat?
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:37
Big Boy Barry
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For conservatives "freedom" means unregulated capitalism, no environmental protection, no social safety net, drugs only allowed for the rich, healthcare only for those who can afford it (sickness and death for those who can't), women losing control of their wombs, creationism in schools and gays forced to stay in the closet (which probably includes most homophobic conservatives themselves).
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:38
Keiō Line
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So, to clarify, you are advocating that the state should regulate who can and cannot reproduce so as reduce the risk of genetic weaknesses? I think there's a word for that...

The truth is that if you were to use the same argument in regards to any other couple who might produce offspring with "genetic weaknesses", such as the disabled, you would have people comparing you to Hitler in the first five replies, even if the risk was far greater than relatives getting reproducing. Yet, bizarrely, as soon as anyone mentions brothers and sisters getting married, everyone becomes a card carrying Nazi ready to espouse the virtues of state enforced Eugenics!

The reality is, genetics aren't the reason brothers and sisters can't marry, it's a rationalisation. The reason is that the vast majority of people find it, well, yucky. Likewise, some people find gay marriage yucky, and come out with rationalisations, including religion, to justify it. But its all the same thing in my opinion. Legislation by yuckiness
The effects of brothers and sisters marring is all to see. Someone at one point made a decision that the greater good is siblings don't get married. In the same way some 15 year old girls may be mature enough to have sex, but the greater good means it is illegal. Hardly Nazism is it?

Yuckiness should not be a factor in deciding law, and should be rejected with a wave of the hand.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:40
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312111

How they can stand there with pride, these old conservative men, and flaunt their discrimination is anyone's guess.

Nasty party indeed.
The picture speaks a thousand words in that article. Some old, white men - looking totally out of touch with Britain in 2013.
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:40
Big Boy Barry
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Brothers marrying their sisters probably wouldn't be common outside of America's southern states anyway, so it's a non-factor in marriage equality
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Old 03-02-2013, 20:43
vanzandtfan
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The effects of brothers and sisters marring is all to see. Someone at one point made a decision that the greater good is siblings don't get married. In the same way some 15 year old girls may be mature enough to have sex, but the greater good means it is illegal. Hardly Nazism is it?

Yuckiness should not be a factor in deciding law, and should be rejected with a wave of the hand.
It is eugenics. No question about that. If you were to advocate people with genetic disabilities not being allowed to marry because of the "greater good" how long would it be before someone invoked Godwin?

Yuckiness is why brothers and sisters can't marry. You may not like to admit it, but it's the truth.
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