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Richard lll : The King in the Carpark C4 Monday


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Old 05-02-2013, 14:25
striing
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I thought it wasn't a bad doc actually - I hope there'll be a more detailed and forensic account of this but perhaps the tone of this would open it up to more people? I shouldn't think there are many who are interested in Richard 3rd so I'm hoping this would have reached more people.
What makes you think that? He's one of the most famous kings/villains in English history. Heck even my father (who comes from the other side of the world and hasn't a qualification to his name - didn't even have a proper secondary education) could tell you that R3 was the last English king to die in battle.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:27
starry
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I was happy with the presenter as well, I get tired of having those with big egos who have their name in the program title and empasise every other word they say and/or wave their arms about. Refreshingly normal presenting in this program I thought, which meant the focus was on the subject.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:31
Granny McSmith
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Leeds, Arundel, Lancaster to name a few more, admittedly all built after the reformation.

As a Church of England Vicar said to me once, the Catholics certainly knew how to build great churches, which is why they have never been handed back!
More than I thought, then! Thanks for that.

I cheered the scientist for refusing to take part in that.
I thought she made herself look a bit po faced. If she didn't want to do it, she could just have said "You do it" to Philippa, without making such a big deal of it. It was meaningless to anyone else but Philippa, really.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:40
JezR
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It seems to may be a case of watch this space. Richard was to be interred at Leicester Cathedral which traces its history to a Saxon bishop in AD 680 and as such was within the guidelines regarding burying bodies close to where they are exhumed.
The nearest Catholic Church to the original burial site is just the other side of the river in Hinckley Road (which is bypassed by King Richards Road). It looks like a load of concrete blocks stuck together. The next nearest is dedicated to Thomas Moore.
Change may be afoot as according to the news today York wish to claim him for their Minister and have already written to the Queen.
Her Majesty's Government had already decided before the exhumation.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:40
Heartache
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The thing that puzzled me is what happened to his feet, and if it was a proper burial ground why were there no other skeleton's. Or was he buried in some out of the way corner.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:46
JezR
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His body was inside the church, rather than in a grave yard. I think it was in the press conference that it was said that it was fortunate that a public lavatory built close by in Victorian times missed the body - maybe that work took away the feet.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:55
ecckles
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I thought it was crap as a documentary.

As an unintended comedy skit it probably hit the mark.
Does that mean your a humourless crappy expert on documentaries
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:56
curmy
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The thing that puzzled me is what happened to his feet, and if it was a proper burial ground why were there no other skeleton's. Or was he buried in some out of the way corner.
Heartache Yes his feet were lost during later public building work, possibly the Victoria loo. They said it was a miracle his whole skeleton wasn't destroyed seeing as lots of work had happened on that site, not to mentions laying sewer & gas pipes etc.

They reckon his body was buried in the choir of the church, a very prestigious spot apparently.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:02
Cadiva
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The thing that puzzled me is what happened to his feet, and if it was a proper burial ground why were there no other skeleton's. Or was he buried in some out of the way corner.
He was buried inside the church, in the choir in fact, which is a sacred space near to the altar. Only very "special" or important people are ever buried that close to the altar or inside at all.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:14
MJS
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The nearest Catholic Church to the original burial site is just the other side of the river in Hinckley Road (which is bypassed by King Richards Road). It looks like a load of concrete blocks stuck together. The next nearest is dedicated to Thomas Moore.

Her Majesty's Government had already decided before the exhumation.
Oh no not Thomas Moore. He was one of those writing in Henry VII and particularly Henry VIII times. He was writing for the Tudors, as was Shakespeare later on, and many misunderstandings about Richard III come down in history through them.

The thing that puzzled me is what happened to his feet, and if it was a proper burial ground why were there no other skeleton's. Or was he buried in some out of the way corner.
As has been said the skeleton was found in the Choir, which is the nearest place to the altar and where only "important" people were buried.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:19
gomezz
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I thought she made herself look a bit po faced. If she didn't want to do it, she could just have said "You do it" to Philippa, without making such a big deal of it. It was meaningless to anyone else but Philippa, really.
It seems to have been sprung on her and she seemed to be desperately thinking of a way to say no without calling Philippa a nutjob which was what had just dawned on her.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:33
PunksNotDead
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Yep! Lord Farquaad! That's him!
Spitting image
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:35
valkay
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As a Church of England Vicar said to me once, the Catholics certainly knew how to build great churches, which is why they have never been handed back!

The "Catholics" built great churches because they were the only Christians before Henry V111 and the reformation.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:36
Granny McSmith
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Oh no not Thomas Moore. He was one of those writing in Henry VII and particularly Henry VIII times. He was writing for the Tudors, as was Shakespeare later on, and many misunderstandings about Richard III come down in history through them.

.
If you mean St Thomas More, I don't think he was particularly a fan of Henry VIII in later life.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:39
MrGiles2
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Being a historian and having read History at University, I was thrilled to bits watching the recording of this programme this morning.

Quite a find in my view, and quite an achievement by all concerned.

Of course, the mystery of who actually murdered the Princes in the Tower will go on, and will probably never be solved.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:43
MrGiles2
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If you mean St Thomas More, I don't think he was particularly a fan of Henry VIII in later life.
Thomas More refused to take of oath of supremacy which entailed King Henry VIII to proclaim himself Head of the Church of England.

He was beheaded on Tower Hill and his remains lie within the walls of the little chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula which stands just off Tower Green within the Tower. I visited that little chapel a few years ago and it was a moving experience. There are other remains of a number of men and at least five women who were executed for treason and still lie there to this day.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:44
Cressida
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The nearest Catholic Church to the original burial site is just the other side of the river in Hinckley Road (which is bypassed by King Richards Road). It looks like a load of concrete blocks stuck together. The next nearest is dedicated to Thomas Moore.

Her Majesty's Government had already decided before the exhumation.
They didn't know then there would be remains to be found.

King Richard visited York several times during his short reign, and stayed for three weeks in 1483. He was met by the mayor and alderman, and was sprinkled with holy water at the entrance to the Minster.

Richard had plans for burial with much ceremonial in York Minster and a radical ambition when English monarchs were traditionally interred at Westminster Abbey. He planned to build an enormous chantry chapel at the Minster where 100 additional chaplains would pray for his soul.

His final buriel place may change but then again it may not.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:44
Yvie123
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I thought she made herself look a bit po faced. If she didn't want to do it, she could just have said "You do it" to Philippa, without making such a big deal of it. It was meaningless to anyone else but Philippa, really.
I did, too, to be honest.
Whatever anyone thought of her, Philippa was clearly really emotionally involved in this venture - at times it was almost as though she had a major schoolgirl like crush on Richard and was overcome at the thought of finally "meeting" her hero!

I didn't see the harm in humouring her by putting the flag on the box, and thought it looked a bit like they were standing there laughing at her at one point.

An interesting programme and a great achievement to find him.

I just wish good History documentaries weren't so few and far between. ... I love them!
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:44
milotic12
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Loved this and was totally captivated by it.

I thought it was refreshing to not have a 'Time Team' presenter or a Historian. It gave the documentary a much more viewer friendly viewpoint I thought.

Am I the only one who wants them to dig up all the old Kings and Queens and have them do a photo fit of them all! Would love to see how some famous historic beauty's really looked like Anne Boleyn etc.
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Old 05-02-2013, 16:02
johartuk
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I think originally C4 had the idea of making a mockumentary out of this

they had a slightly nutty woman looking for a lost king

a presenter that IMO could not be taken seriously

I honestly think that C4 would have given us a nice gory story about the evil prince with excerpts of the dig not finding anything

but, they did find something and when it looked like the nutty woman was right C4 didnt know how to treat the story

I really think C4 started out with the agenda of making a documentary about a load of conspiracy theorists/fantasists (a bit like UFO believers) but got caught when the findings of these people were real

what could have been a good story (a group of peoples belief that a missing king could be found) was just turned into a bit of a damp squib

the reconstruction of the face even fell flat after the way C4 built up to it even though the reconstruction was done by IMO the best possible expert
Caroline Wilkinson has reconstructed faces for Meet the Ancestors, History Cold Case and even Crime Watch as well as the faces of Bach and St Nicolas
I got to the point where I wanted to see the reconstruction but without the presenter or Phillippa there as her reactions were very distracting and I could not take the presenter seriously
Exactly. They thought it was going to be a documentary about an eccentric woman looking for a lost King and nothing was going to come of it. Hence the editing ("Let's show Philippa's more 'over emotional' moments and portray her as being a few sandwiches short of a picnic!") and style of the documentary. Unfortunately for them, the King was found, so the "let's all laugh at the mad woman who led us on a wild goose chase!" tone of the piece felt all wrong.
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Old 05-02-2013, 16:16
Bathsheba
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Am I the only one who wants them to dig up all the old Kings and Queens and have them do a photo fit of them all! Would love to see how some famous historic beauty's really looked like Anne Boleyn etc.
I would like to see this too. Anne Boleyn is under the chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London.
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Old 05-02-2013, 16:24
curmy
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This is a short piece from Wikipedia about who else is buried in St Peter Ad Vincula ,

What I don't understand is why more aristocratic families havn't had their relatives bodies removed from that sad thittle chapel.

The Chapel is perhaps best known as the burial place of some of the most famous Tower prisoners, including three queens: Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, the second and fifth wives of Henry VIII, respectively, and Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for nine days in 1553. George Boleyn, brother of Anne, was also buried here after his execution in 1536, as were Edmund Dudley and Sir Richard Empson, tax collectors for Henry VII, and Guildford Dudley, husband to Lady Jane Grey, in February 1554, after being executed on Tower Green. Thomas More and John Fisher, who incurred the wrath of Henry VIII, were subsequently executed, and later canonised as martyrs by the Roman Catholic Church, are also buried here; Philip Howard, a third saint who suffered under the Tudors, was also buried here for a time before his body was relocated to Arundel.[1] In addition, Henry VIII's minister, Thomas Cromwell, executed in 1540, was buried here.[3]
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Old 05-02-2013, 16:26
curmy
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This is a short piece from Wikipedia about who else is buried in St Peter Ad Vincula ,

What I don't understand is why more aristocratic families havn't had their relatives bodies removed from that sad little chapel.[/quote]

The Chapel is perhaps best known as the burial place of some of the most famous Tower prisoners, including three queens: Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, the second and fifth wives of Henry VIII, respectively, and Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for nine days in 1553. George Boleyn, brother of Anne, was also buried here after his execution in 1536, as were Edmund Dudley and Sir Richard Empson, tax collectors for Henry VII, and Guildford Dudley, husband to Lady Jane Grey, in February 1554, after being executed on Tower Green. Thomas More and John Fisher, who incurred the wrath of Henry VIII, were subsequently executed, and later canonised as martyrs by the Roman Catholic Church, are also buried here; Philip Howard, a third saint who suffered under the Tudors, was also buried here for a time before his body was relocated to Arundel.[1] In addition, Henry VIII's minister, Thomas Cromwell, executed in 1540, was buried here.[3]
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Old 05-02-2013, 16:57
starry
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I thought we enjoyed having less of a pompous tone to documentaries (unlike in America were they have these stern voice overs)? We don't have to be talked to like we are schoolchildren. So when we don't get that we should be happy I think.
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Old 05-02-2013, 17:06
Juless
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I was so disappointed with this program.

When you think how fascinating Time Team could make a dig where they only found a couple of pieces of pot. Here they had the most amazing find to reveal, but it all got lost under the jokey style of the presenter and the emotional woman.

Hopefully someone will make a more considered documentary with a decent presenter which puts the find into historical context.
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