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Richard lll : The King in the Carpark C4 Monday


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Old 06-02-2013, 23:22
mathsbunny
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That must be a gruesome job !
Duh!!

That would be PROFESSOR Caroline Wilkinson. An extremely noted academic .
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Old 06-02-2013, 23:22
dome
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Yes, Philippa's emoting was way over the top but there was a serious point to be made - this man was a fellow human being after all. I've certainly seen documentaries where what we might regard as excessive respect has been accorded to human remains. One concerned a 19th century US Naval vessel, the wreck of which was raised and the US Naval personnel conducting the salvage refused the cameramen even a glimpse of the scant human remains recovered; as far as they were concerned, those guys were fellow servicemen and deserved the same respect as any other fallen US sailor. Quite correct and also quite moving.
I totally understand that, but imo she was more upset that he actually had a deformity, her fantasy bubble was well and truly burst.

It's a shame because what was an outstanding find and the science behind it was wrecked by her histrionics for me.
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Old 06-02-2013, 23:25
mikw
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Apparently the lady who did this facial reconstruction has also reconstructed the skeletal remains of murder victims and helped indentify who the victim was - pretty clever really.
Yeah, she's on BBC's "History Cold Case", viewers to that would know that she's very good at the facial reconstructions.
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Old 06-02-2013, 23:34
mathsbunny
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I totally understand that, but imo she was more upset that he actually had a deformity, her fantasy bubble was well and truly burst.

It's a shame because what was an outstanding find and the science behind it was wrecked by her histrionics for me.
On the contrary, her fundraising and persistence has produced a most magnificent find for this country and I applaud her and the R3 society for their loyalty.
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Old 07-02-2013, 00:11
Cyclist
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Why do you think that they were 1 foot deep?.

If you watched the programme, it was clear that the remains were found several feet below ground level.
Read it somewhere. Due to clashes I have not seen this yet but am looking forward to it.

No sign of the horse, but there are several budget supermarkets nearby...
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Old 07-02-2013, 00:20
Mystic Dave
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When he was buried, R3 was only about a foot below the church floor, but the ground level has risen since then. That is the only way anything above ground level or just below it gets preserved.

I think Phillipa was misled somewhat as the archaeologists said he had a curved spine when he was lying in situ. In fact, he had a twisted spine as they discovered later. So, she initially thought that the Tudor propaganda was true on that point - anyone reading about him must have known that he was rather effeminate and no superhuman.
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Old 07-02-2013, 00:49
curmy
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I think what threw her was when they said he had a hunch bach, when instead it was a scoliosis.

I thought he had rather an effeminate mouth .

Its it true Henry V11 put up a monument in the church to him ?
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:10
allie4
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On the contrary, her fundraising and persistence has produced a most magnificent find for this country and I applaud her and the R3 society for their loyalty.
I agree! But for Philippa there would've been no 'King in the Car Park'!
After all the time and emotion she'd invested in finding his bones, her reactions were fully justified imo.. although I did find her a bit much after seeing it for the 2nd time! But it WAS kind of her story as well as his in a way.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:34
Jucee
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I found this a really fascinating documentary. The lady was a bit bonkers, but I did admire her determination and dedication and if it wasn't for her he would still be there.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:42
thefairydandy
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Yes R for reserved - directly over where Richard was found.
I don't believe that. I would need to rewatch it to be sure, but from the pictures they showed, it seemed to be in a different place to where he was found.
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Old 07-02-2013, 13:22
Ledecestre
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I think what threw her was when they said he had a hunch bach, when instead it was a scoliosis.

I thought he had rather an effeminate mouth .

Its it true Henry V11 put up a monument in the church to him ?
He did indeed. A while after the event. I think I'm right in saying it cost 10 or something like that.
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Old 07-02-2013, 14:15
curmy
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I suppose he felt rather guilty

I'm surprised the monument was smashed doring the dissolution of the Monasteries, perhaps Henry V111 didn't care as Richard was a Plantagenant !

Although I think it's always a mistake to destroy your predecessors' tombs !
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Old 07-02-2013, 15:37
fridaysdream
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I would have preferred something a bit more balanced/serious for what is actually an important find. The program actually made me doubt the work of the archeologists and scientist (that and the news that the council has already bought up the land nearby to build a museum). Clearly Leicester has a lot to gain from this find, and it makes me skeptical - so I went and watched the full press release - feeling better about it again now.

I did find the woman and sidekick annoying (I wonder if they picked him to try and make her look balanced) but I think this program would have been absolutely fine and an interesting supplement - if they had also had a much more serious program alongside.

Personally I'm much more interested to know what the team felt at various stages - rather than a Ricardian. I think there's an interesting journey to be told from the days when they started the project with great skepticism, to this weeks press release. How did they feel as the evidence mounted up?

That doesn't mean that Phillipa's story shouldn't be told - it is interesting, but shouldn't have been an isolated documentary.

It's always interesting how people want to paint historical figures as either good or bad. I thought about joining the Richard III Society years ago as I was interested in debating the events - but my impression was that it was all so pro-Richard I decided not to.
I believe there is evidence that his brother (the princes in the towers father) was illegitimate, it was at the end of the Tony Robinson Fact or Fiction about him that a historian presented his evidence (the 'father' wasn't there at conception, the christening was a hushed up affair - the next son's a big event, and the mother herself said he was illegitimate at various times). I've not looked into the research further, so I've taken that at face-value. We don't know if Richard thought that for sure - we know that was the reason he said he ceased the crown, but it's odd that it didn't seem to have bothered him in Edward's life (maybe he was happy with the power he had). Whether or not, knowing that his brothers in-laws were probably going to faction the court and take Richard's power in the North away, would explain why he seized the crown (to me anyway). Did he kill the princes - I don't know - he might have intended to raise them hidden from site till they were fully indoctrinated towards what would have been the Richard faction - and the the Tudors found them (it was only two years later), maybe they died of some serious illness, smallpox or something (common in those day) and he knew he would be blamed and hushed it up - but honestly I think he probably did kill them. It wasn't unknown, Arthur, King John's nephew disappeared whilst being held in Rouen after launching a bid for the crown. It doesn't really matter now - or at least not on this debate/forum which should be about the documentary!

I hope we'll get another later in the year which is a bit more serious about the process, it would be interesting if they found someone with similar scoliosis. It may well be that he appeared to just have a slightly raised right shoulder when fully dressed (which I think wasn't uncommon among fighting men anyway - I'm sure the muscles were known to be larger on the fighting arm), but slung naked on the back of a horse, the Tudors would have clearly seen that there was a problem with the spine. Hence why the rumours started after.

It's all really interesting, which is why I feel let down by the documentary - if that is all we are getting!
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Old 07-02-2013, 16:59
willowfan
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The London Evening Standard used the "My Kingdom for a Hearse" line yesterday in an article about the brewing argument where RIII should be reburied.
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Old 07-02-2013, 17:40
curmy
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This is an interesting article about why the bones of the supposed Little Princes aren't going to be tested for DNA any time soon !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...-staying-under
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Old 09-02-2013, 00:04
Cyclist
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When he was buried, R3 was only about a foot below the church floor, but the ground level has risen since then. That is the only way anything above ground level or just below it gets preserved.
Thanks, vindicated. That's surprisingly shallow and would have risked flies, maggots and other infestations as well as the smell.

Its it true Henry V11 put up a monument in the church to him ?
Henry VII was a canny ruler who did his best to mend a fractured society, even going so far as to marrying someone from the House of York. Whatever his real feeings, erecting a monument would have been an easy conciliatory act.
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Old 10-02-2013, 13:36
starry
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I'm sure there will eventually be a more academic documentary when more details are uncovered, I don't know why people are under the assumption there wouldn't be. This program was great on the drama of the discovery, which was exactly what it was supposed to be about.
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Old 15-02-2013, 16:33
racol5
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I like Phillipa, a British eccentric who did a bit of research, raised some cash, dug up a council car park and found a king.

With her dying breathe she will know she achieved her lifes aim. Not many of us can say that.
You are not the only one. Nice write up on her emotional (if at times funny) journey

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...n-8488318.html
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Old 15-02-2013, 18:05
valkay
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I like Phillipa, a British eccentric who did a bit of research, raised some cash, dug up a council car park and found a king.

With her dying breathe she will know she achieved her lifes aim. Not many of us can say that.
On Midlands T.V.news they were showing proposed plans for Richards tomb, but the Richard 111 spokeswoman was a more serious sensible person. Perhaps the R.111 society were embarrassed by Phillipa, and wanted to distance themselves from her.I wonder if she will be allowed to go to the reburial service.?
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Old 16-02-2013, 00:40
Mystic Dave
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I would think so, as she runs the society and raised the cash. She lives in Edinbugh, so it would be much easier to get a local. Maybe that person worked out the design?
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Old 16-02-2013, 01:28
draig goch
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When this story first broke, my wife asked me "Why did they bury him under a car park ?"

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Old 16-02-2013, 20:31
allafix
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I enjoyed the programme and relived its eccentricity reading this great thread today. Philippa's tears and attacks of the vapours were rather OTT, but the best bit was the flag on the box without doubt. I had no problems with the presenter, his level headed style nicely balanced Philippa's emotional outpourings. The story of the discovery was exciting enough and it didn't need Tony Robinson to gee it up. Had it been a Time Team production I don't think I would have watched. Far too fond of themselves in episodes I've seen.

It was stated that there is NO evidence at all that he ordered the murder of his nephews.
It looks from this as if he did but I can't help remembering Josephine Tey's research which stated that the boys were illegitimate and therefore had no claim to the throne so they weren't a threat to Richard. They were, however, a threat to the legitimacy of Henry's position. Interesting.....
Also in those days the Tower was no always a prison but frequently housed royalty for protection.
It was Richard who had the Princes declared illegitimate. They disappeared while in his protective custody. There is no direct evidence against him (or anyone else) but Richard stood to gain most by getting rid of them. Even though they had already been declared illegitimate they would still have been a threat to his reign as a focal point for his enemies. Killing them would avoid that risk.

The Tudors clearly re-wrote history to portray Richard as a monster and so look good for removing him, but they didn't invent the missing princes. It's highly likely Richard had them disposed of. That said, by the standards of the time Richard was no more ruthless than any of his rivals and by all accounts was a good King. As with many things the truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes. The Ricardian fantasy is no more likely to be true than the Tudor propaganda.

Yeah I had to chuckle at Phillipa's "R marks the spot" piece, as I worked in the Grey Friars Leicester Social Services Building about 8 years ago and if I remember rightly the R stands for reserved ( probably a Director's parking space).

What also amused me is that the car parking attendant seemed as if he hadn't moved from his little hut in the eight years I have been gone. Looked exactly the same! Come to think of it I do remember the car park attendant shouting a lot about "King Dick" when cars nearly got stuck in the narrow entrance coming into the car park. Shoulda listened to him back then and here's me just thinking he had a potty mouth. Perhaps he knew all along.....
If you look at pictures of the car park before the dig, the R was only roughly painted, certainly not in the professional way you'd expect in a Council car park. Anyway most car parks with reserved spaces have "RESERVED" painted there, not "R". The parking space wasn't even a full car length long either, so not much of a space to reserve for management. There is what looks like graffiti painted on the tarmac nearby, so I expect it was related to that.

It must have set poor Philippa's heart racing to find an R in the car park she thought he was buried in and that must have contributed to the feelings about the place she said she had felt.

More than I thought, then! Thanks for that.



I thought she made herself look a bit po faced. If she didn't want to do it, she could just have said "You do it" to Philippa, without making such a big deal of it. It was meaningless to anyone else but Philippa, really.
In fairness she declined because they didn't yet know with any certainty that it was Richard's remains. Philippa was convinced, but with nothing to back it up. For a scientist it's perfectly proper, and not at all po faced, not to celebrate a discovery before it is proved. Philippa couldn't wait that long to drape the standard over the box.

When he was buried, R3 was only about a foot below the church floor, but the ground level has risen since then. That is the only way anything above ground level or just below it gets preserved.

I think Phillipa was misled somewhat as the archaeologists said he had a curved spine when he was lying in situ. In fact, he had a twisted spine as they discovered later. So, she initially thought that the Tudor propaganda was true on that point - anyone reading about him must have known that he was rather effeminate and no superhuman.
Philippa was so convinced Richard was not a hunchback that she didn't want to believe the spine was curved at all. Then she was upset by the doctor describe him as such.

Richard may have been slightly effeminate but that didn't stop him being a brave leader in battle and a renowned soldier.
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Old 16-02-2013, 20:43
striing
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When this story first broke, my wife asked me "Why did they bury him under a car park ?"

Sounds like she was the show's target demographic.
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Old 16-02-2013, 20:44
Keels
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When this story first broke, my wife asked me "Why did they bury him under a car park ?"

I can't stop giggling
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Old 16-02-2013, 20:47
Tiggywink
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It was Richard who had the Princes declared illegitimate. They disappeared while in his protective custody. There is no direct evidence against him (or anyone else) but Richard stood to gain most by getting rid of them. Even though they had already been declared illegitimate they would still have been a threat to his reign as a focal point for his enemies. Killing them would avoid that risk.
Any theories,then, about why he didn't display their bodies to publicly discourage any would-be followers ? Wouldn't be much point in bumping them off to stop opponents if their deaths were never confirmed. He could have said they died of some pox or other.

I actually think he had them stowed away out of sight until he could think of what to do with them. The first minor rebellion against him probably decided it for him - they had to go.
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