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Old 14-02-2013, 19:48
smudges dad
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Why are you ignoring the process of assimilation?
You seem to in all your posts! Besides, you brought up the Britons who were the main population before the Romans.
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Old 14-02-2013, 19:54
allaorta
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Actually MickMars escaped from that East London council estate in 1988,but he still has friends that live there who he visits.
That once reasonable East London council state is now housing people from all over the planet,never could quite figure out how that came about.
How are things in 92% white British Stevenage this week ?
I did building work in Stevenage some 45 years ago. It was a shitehouse then and was still one when I went there a few times around 10 years ago.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:00
MARTYM8
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We have something in common then. Do you think LBWF is a harmonious mix of nations and cultures? I couldn't get out quickly enough.
I am still there - for the moment!

But I would eventually like to move somewhere where you occassionally hear people speaking English on the street - not essential but it would be novel!. Where I live the only native English speakers left seem to be the drunks/homeless who hang around the tube station.

We do seem to have a lot of current/ex east Londoners on here from Waltham Forest and environs. And of course that is precisely the location where it is anticipated most Bulgarian and Romanian migrants wish to head. It will certainly be a shock to the system if they are expecting the streets to be paved with gold - when more often than not the streets are paved with another yellow coloured material!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...t-8491063.html
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:04
Blairdennon
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You seem to in all your posts! Besides, you brought up the Britons who were the main population before the Romans.
No I referred to the ethnic British, which is a current existent group. I refer to assimilation continuously by my repeated statements that the actual race and racial origins of the ethnic British and the individuals of the group is in my opinion immaterial.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:05
mithy73
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No I referred to the ethnic British, which is a current existent group.
Let's not derail another thread with that.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:07
MARTYM8
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No I referred to the ethnic British, which is a current existent group. I refer to assimilation continuously by my repeated statements that the actual race and racial origins of the ethnic British and the individuals of the group is in my opinion immaterial.
Surely Celts are the 'ethnic British' - its when those pesky AngloSaxons arrived from the EU that things started to go downhill!
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:09
wazzyboy
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Any manifesto of a party that formed a Government, here is Labour's from 2005

We will ensure that only skilled workers are allowed to settle long-term
in the UK, with English language tests for everyone who wants to stay
permanently and an end to chain migration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h..._manifesto.pdf

Here is the Tory one from the same year

Britain has reached a turning-point. That is why a Conservative
Government will bring immigration back under control. We have set
out a series of practical and considered steps to restore control
and fairness to our immigration system.

http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/manifesto-uk-2005.pdf


That accounts for the overwhelming majority of voters. As I said the GE is the only poll that really counts and it is clear what the parties stated they would do and that the electorate voted for them.
A percentage of those who voted did. Not everyone voted of course.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:19
Blairdennon
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Let's not derail another thread with that.
You can ignore and I was asked.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:25
mithy73
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You can ignore and I was asked.
The claim of "the ethnic British" being "a current existent group", which you state as fact, is however contentious. I'm not one to let things stated as fact that are contentious pass without comment. I'm sure you understand.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:28
Blairdennon
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A percentage of those who voted did. Not everyone voted of course.
The point being of course is that it is not a sample, it is where everyone has a chance to cast their vote, just as in a poll people are asked for their opinion and may or may not give it.
Everyone has a chance in an election to either vote for, vote against , not bother, abstain or spoil their papers. Which makes it the only poll that really counts.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:33
WindWalker
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I am still there - for the moment!

But I would eventually like to move somewhere where you occassionally hear people speaking English on the street - not essential but it would be novel!. Where I live the only native English speakers left seem to be the drunks/homeless who hang around the tube station.

We do seem to have a lot of current/ex east Londoners on here from Waltham Forest and environs. And of course that is precisely the location where it is anticipated most Bulgarian and Romanian migrants wish to head. It will certainly be a shock to the system if they are expecting the streets to be paved with gold - when more often than not the streets are paved with another yellow coloured material!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...t-8491063.html
Where did you get that information from Marty? The government won't even release numbers, let alone where they may move to.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:34
wazzyboy
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The point being of course is that it is not a sample, it is where everyone has a chance to cast their vote, just as in a poll people are asked for their opinion and may or may not give it.
Everyone has a chance in an election to either vote for, vote against , not bother, abstain or spoil their papers. Which makes it the only poll that really counts.
But if they do not express their view how can any definitive conclusion be drawn? Or do we just discount them or assume they think what suits our cause?
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:34
WindWalker
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The point being of course is that it is not a sample, it is where everyone has a chance to cast their vote, just as in a poll people are asked for their opinion and may or may not give it.
Everyone has a chance in an election to either vote for, vote against , not bother, abstain or spoil their papers. Which makes it the only poll that really counts.
And so far, the bnp, who wish to stop immigration and deport folk, haven't got one single MP. Maybe folk are not quite the way you think they are...
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:40
riceuten
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I did building work in Stevenage some 45 years ago. It was a shitehouse then and was still one when I went there a few times around 10 years ago.
Thankyou for your valuable and relevant contribution to the debate. Please come again. You will see, incidentally, that I'm not claiming Stevenage is some kind of Hampstead in the making. Quite the opposite really.

Allaorta reminds me of the pub drunk who pushes your drink over, and then gets upset that you don't want a fight.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:40
Blairdennon
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The claim of "the ethnic British" being "a current existent group", which you state as fact, is however contentious. I'm not one to let things stated as fact that are contentious pass without comment. I'm sure you understand.
Well in my opinion it is, and in the opinion of many others. You seem quite insistent that it does not exist which seems to be the contentious issue. It is strange that you can quite categorically deny the existence of something as nebulous and ill defined as most ethnicities are.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:42
mithy73
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Well in my opinion it is, and in the opinion of many others. You seem quite insistent that it does not exist which seems to be the contentious issue. It is strange that you can quite categorically deny the existence of something as nebulous and ill defined as most ethnicities are.
Well, in my opinion, and in that of many others, it doesn't. You seem quite insistent that it exists which is the contentious issue. It is strange that you can quite categorically assert the existence of something as nebulous and ill defined as you think most ethnicities are.
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:44
Blairdennon
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And so far, the bnp, who wish to stop immigration and deport folk, haven't got one single MP. Maybe folk are not quite the way you think they are...
I have never argued that point, but they did vote for (or as some put it, did not reject) the firm stance on immigration normally adopted by both main parties.
By the way the BNP wish to deport illegal immigrants and foreign criminals, you obviously think these people should not be deported?
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Old 14-02-2013, 20:59
riceuten
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I am still there - for the moment!

But I would eventually like to move somewhere where you occassionally hear people speaking English on the street - not essential but it would be novel!. Where I live the only native English speakers left seem to be the drunks/homeless who hang around the tube station.
I must have worked in a different Walthamstow to you for the previous 10 months - I don't speak Polish, Urdu, or Romanian and I "struggled gamely through". All the people who phoned the school admissions service must do a very good impression of speaking perfect English.

We do seem to have a lot of current/ex east Londoners on here from Waltham Forest and environs. And of course that is precisely the location where it is anticipated most Bulgarian and Romanian migrants wish to head.
What information do you base this particular piece of intelligence on? Oh, you just KNOW.

It will certainly be a shock to the system if they are expecting the streets to be paved with gold
I don't think they are, to be honest outside the editorials of the Sun, the Heil and the Evening Nazi
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:03
Blairdennon
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Well, in my opinion, and in that of many others, it doesn't. You seem quite insistent that it exists which is the contentious issue. It is strange that you can quite categorically assert the existence of something as nebulous and ill defined as you think most ethnicities are.
The important point about ethnicity is it requires a group to believe they are of that group and it also requires people like you to believe they do not belong to said group. I have no idea how to define a Kurd but I know there are a number of people who believe that is what they are and I know I am not one of them. I would not dream of saying they did not exist because I thought they should be classed as Turkish, or Iraqi, or something else.
Whether you agree that the ethnic British do or do not exist, your denial that they do is an act consistent with the historic denial of rights for many ethnic groups. It is very telling.
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:09
mithy73
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The important point about ethnicity is it requires a group to believe they are of that group and it also requires people like you to believe they do not belong to said group.
By that argument, you can define any in-group as an ethnicity, up to and including Man U fans and Apple cultists. That is ridiculous. You need a better definition than that.

I have no idea how to define a Kurd but I know there are a number of people who believe that is what they are and I know I am not one of them. I would not dream of saying they did not exist because I thought they should be classed as Turkish, or Iraqi, or something else.
Invalid analogy, and one that also begs the question.

Whether you agree that the ethnic British do or do not exist, your denial that they do is an act consistent with the historic denial of rights for many ethnic groups. It is very telling.
And this is exactly the thread derail I didn't want to get into. But you couldn't resist going completely overboard and trying to make out that I'm some evil oppressor.

Seriously, get over yourself. No, it's not "telling"; it's a difference of opinion. As far as I am concerned, "the ethnic British" are no more real than "the ethnic Europeans" or "the ethnic Westerners". It's a category error, in my view.

In no sense does that deny anyone a sense of identity (and as for "denial of rights", I can only presume you've done another Factory Reset on your memory, as we already established that that was a load of baloney). I consider myself British, European and Western - and at the other end of the scale, Londoner and adopted Bristolian - as well as English. They are all part of my identity. But only one is my ethnicity.

And I'm sure that if anyone tried to claim that there was such a thing as "the ethnic Europeans", it would be decried as some sort of evil EU-inspired plot. Would you then be claiming that people saying there's no such thing were trying to deny people's rights?
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:29
Belligerence
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Why are you ignoring the process of assimilation?
That's worked smashingly in other countries, hasn't it?
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:32
Blairdennon
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By that argument, you can define any in-group as an ethnicity, up to and including Man U fans and Apple cultists. That is ridiculous. You need a better definition than that.



Invalid analogy, and one that also begs the question.



And this is exactly the thread derail I didn't want to get into. But you couldn't resist going completely overboard and trying to make out that I'm some evil oppressor.

Seriously, get over yourself. No, it's not "telling"; it's a difference of opinion. As far as I am concerned, "the ethnic British" are no more real than "the ethnic Europeans" or "the ethnic Westerners". It's a category error, in my view.

In no sense does that deny anyone a sense of identity (and as for "denial of rights", I can only presume you've done another Factory Reset on your memory, as we already established that that was a load of baloney). I consider myself British, European and Western - and at the other end of the scale, Londoner and adopted Bristolian - as well as English. They are all part of my identity. But only one is my ethnicity.

And I'm sure that if anyone tried to claim that there was such a thing as "the ethnic Europeans", it would be decried as some sort of evil EU-inspired plot. Would you then be claiming that people saying there's no such thing were trying to deny people's rights?
The BNP did define ethnic groupings in terms of North European, they were called racist for saying it, or even just trying to define it. No one calls Arabs racist for doing the same.

I personally I have no objection to however people wish to define what ethnic group they believe they belong to as I say it those who are adamantly opposed to just some that I find perplexing and disturbing.

Now you have said only one is your ethnicity, which one would that be?
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:39
Sniffle774
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The BNP did define ethnic groupings in terms of North European, they were called racist for saying it, or even just trying to define it.
Were they ? Or were they called racist for then using that definition as an excuse to exclude people ?

Saying some people are women is not sexist, saying some people are women and those people should stay at home and raise babies because they are women, is.. Context is key.
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Old 14-02-2013, 21:50
xxtimbo
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I blame Ted Heath
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Old 14-02-2013, 22:20
allaorta
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Thankyou for your valuable and relevant contribution to the debate. Please come again. You will see, incidentally, that I'm not claiming Stevenage is some kind of Hampstead in the making. Quite the opposite really.

Allaorta reminds me of the pub drunk who pushes your drink over, and then gets upset that you don't want a fight.
It ain't going to happen Sonny Boy. Allaorta doesn't drink and even if he did, he wouldn't be standing next to a supporter of left-wing socialism.
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