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Doc Martin (Part 15 — Spoilers)


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Old 12-07-2013, 20:43
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Old 12-07-2013, 20:44
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DM is back on Netflix!
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Old 12-07-2013, 20:52
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I sure hope so!
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Old 12-07-2013, 21:02
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Hello, all,

I think it reduces the complexity of humanity to think we really know what DM and Edith were like for the years they were together as lovers, 25 years before we saw her show up in his life. Edith may have been prickly to LG, but to DM she had clear affection and patience, appreciated his point of view and enjoyed being around him.

I do not believe they were really egghead intellectual robots having sex when they were in medical school. For one thing, DM main issue in life is wanting someone to truly love him, which his parents clearly did not do, nor did he apparently have an easy time at boarding school. AJ gave him brief interludes of love which meant 40 years later he runs to her when he has his hemophilia and career change.

When Edith and he were together, I feel he at least was head over heels in love with her. Look at the couple of episodes in S3 after he and LG had been intimate and decided to marry--he was very considerate of her, asked her opinion, and was really striving to be a good partner, as well as he could. I imagine he and Edith could indeed have been romantic and loving, at times, as well as intellectual and medically oriented.

Even in the night in the hotel, Edith could indeed have been imagining a successful talk, no doubt a nice dinner, and a romantically sexual interlude afterwards.

As DM fans who perhaps have no doubt disliked Edith, it's easy to think their entire years together was cold and mechanical. I think there are indeed many signs we see to show that was not necessarily the case.

PS--the large transformer ad comes up again, now, with the reply section box and on the main site, too.
Good points Mona. And I think there were times in S4 that he really did think there was a chance that he and Edith might make a go of it because he did seem to think that Louisa did not want him in her life.

But when he got to the hotel he had a jolt when he realized what she had planned. Once he got over the surprise I think he was up for it. But the renewed shot of confidence he got from handling the crisis in the kitchen, Edith's treatment of hm like a schoolboy in the kitchen, and the maid's ponytail all jolted him into realizing that it was Louisa he wanted. He still didn't have any expectations of getting back with Louisa because he was leaving for London. But he did know that he wasn't ready yet to move on.
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Old 12-07-2013, 21:17
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Hello, all,

I think it reduces the complexity of humanity to think we really know what DM and Edith were like for the years they were together as lovers, 25 years before we saw her show up in his life. Edith may have been prickly to LG, but to DM she had clear affection and patience, appreciated his point of view and enjoyed being around him.

I do not believe they were really egghead intellectual robots having sex when they were in medical school. For one thing, DM main issue in life is wanting someone to truly love him, which his parents clearly did not do, nor did he apparently have an easy time at boarding school. AJ gave him brief interludes of love which meant 40 years later he runs to her when he has his hemophilia and career change.

When Edith and he were together, I feel he at least was head over heels in love with her. Look at the couple of episodes in S3 after he and LG had been intimate and decided to marry--he was very considerate of her, asked her opinion, and was really striving to be a good partner, as well as he could. I imagine he and Edith could indeed have been romantic and loving, at times, as well as intellectual and medically oriented.

Even in the night in the hotel, Edith could indeed have been imagining a successful talk, no doubt a nice dinner, and a romantically sexual interlude afterwards.

As DM fans who perhaps have no doubt disliked Edith, it's easy to think their entire years together was cold and mechanical. I think there are indeed many signs we see to show that was not necessarily the case.

PS--the large transformer ad comes up again, now, with the reply section box and on the main site, too.
He doesn't have hemophilia or he would have died a dozen times with his bits of clumsiness. He has Haemophobia my friend.
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Old 12-07-2013, 21:26
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Old 12-07-2013, 21:37
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Hello, all,

I think it reduces the complexity of humanity to think we really know what DM and Edith were like for the years they were together as lovers, 25 years before we saw her show up in his life. Edith may have been prickly to LG, but to DM she had clear affection and patience, appreciated his point of view and enjoyed being around him.

I do not believe they were really egghead intellectual robots having sex when they were in medical school. For one thing, DM main issue in life is wanting someone to truly love him, which his parents clearly did not do, nor did he apparently have an easy time at boarding school. AJ gave him brief interludes of love which meant 40 years later he runs to her when he has his hemophilia and career change.

When Edith and he were together, I feel he at least was head over heels in love with her. Look at the couple of episodes in S3 after he and LG had been intimate and decided to marry--he was very considerate of her, asked her opinion, and was really striving to be a good partner, as well as he could. I imagine he and Edith could indeed have been romantic and loving, at times, as well as intellectual and medically oriented.

Even in the night in the hotel, Edith could indeed have been imagining a successful talk, no doubt a nice dinner, and a romantically sexual interlude afterwards.

As DM fans who perhaps have no doubt disliked Edith, it's easy to think their entire years together was cold and mechanical. I think there are indeed many signs we see to show that was not necessarily the case.
Oh, yes, I think you're right. I was referring to the behavior of Martin and Edith in S4 that we actually witnessed, not to their time together years before. Way back in their past, well, you're most likely correct. He wanted to marry her. He wrote poetry for her. Certainly these things tell us a lot. No doubt it did affect Martin deeply when Edith left him.
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Old 12-07-2013, 23:36
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Just noticed that Doc Martin is on at 9! What a perfect start to a sunny weekend
Oh, B.G., I have to wait until tomorrow night, but enjoy. Glad to hear from you again, dear instigator of this forum!
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Old 12-07-2013, 23:37
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I believe that there has always been a tendency to believe that Edith seduced Martin while in Medical School. He was a brilliant student with the physical attributes of being tall, strong and malleable. He was putty in her hands. These many years later he has grown. I believe that he has the sexual know how that perhaps Edith has cultivated but still does not handle the true emotion of love for another. I think that this naïveté is what you see in the "sandalwood" question or the "emotional" remark. Yes the Doc has had sex, but it did not really mesh with love. That's why the innocent "emotional" statements and the queries of hormonal effects. The man is feeling his own emotions for the first time.
Read my post again, I believe, in my humble and respectful opinion that Edith is a "user". She picks and takes whatever she wants as long as it's in her best interest. As I stated in my above post I believe that Martin was a shy and unhappy young man. Edith used him for sex and whatever but I suggest he was besotted with her, which in this case turned out to be a destructive and unhealthy devotion. He was terribly hurt when she left him because even THAT relationship was sour. Edith knew Canada was in her best professional and probably monetary interest. She didn't give a hoot about Martin.
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Old 12-07-2013, 23:45
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Your right Rob. I apologize to Last Romantic and to anyone else I offended. I shouldn't have said what I did. Please forgive me.
Forgiven and forgotten! Friends?

Rob
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Old 12-07-2013, 23:55
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Read my post again, I believe, in my humble and respectful opinion that Edith is a "user". She picks and takes whatever she wants as long as it's in her best interest. As I stated in my above post I believe that Martin was a shy and unhappy young man. Edith used him for sex and whatever but I suggest he was besotted with her, which in this case turned out to be a destructive and unhealthy devotion. He was terribly hurt when she left him because even THAT relationship was sour. Edith knew Canada was in her best professional and probably monetary interest. She didn't give a hoot about Martin.
Well said.
I always thought that Aunt Joan's reaction to her was less about what she did to Martin and more about AJ seeing Edith for what she was.
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:02
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But when he got to the hotel he had a jolt when he realized what she had planned. Once he got over the surprise I think he was up for it. But the renewed shot of confidence he got from handling the crisis in the kitchen, Edith's treatment of hm like a schoolboy in the kitchen, and the maid's ponytail all jolted him into realizing that it was Louisa he wanted. He still didn't have any expectations of getting back with Louisa because he was leaving for London. But he did know that he wasn't ready yet to move on.
Actually, I am not convinced that it was the ponytail of the maid that made him re-think. I always found the resemblance between the maid and Louisa wasn't strong enough. I always thought he simply looked at the bed and it dawned him that he didn't want to share that with Edith.
But that's just my personal opinion.
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:06
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Mofromco

And I must respectfully disagree with you about Edith. If Edith did not give a hoot about Martin, why didn't she just say "nice seeing you Ellingham, bye, bye." Instead, she helped him with his hemophobia, asked him to help her with a paper to boost his professional confidence, persuaded him to meet with a doctor from London who could help him return to surgery. He gave every indication that she was his intellectual equal at medical school, and I can't imagine him putting up with someone who was not. I am not a fan of Edith Montgomery, but I think they had a relationship in their youth and, like many people at the end of professional training, went their separate ways and ended the relationship. I know people want to think that Edith used Martin only for sex because that eliminates the notion that only Louisa could reach his emotional self, but we do not know the type of relationship they had in med school. If she used hims sexually, I doubt that he objected very much.
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:08
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Read my post again, I believe, in my humble and respectful opinion that Edith is a "user". She picks and takes whatever she wants as long as it's in her best interest. As I stated in my above post I believe that Martin was a shy and unhappy young man. Edith used him for sex and whatever but I suggest he was besotted with her, which in this case turned out to be a destructive and unhealthy devotion. He was terribly hurt when she left him because even THAT relationship was sour. Edith knew Canada was in her best professional and probably monetary interest. She didn't give a hoot about Martin.
That's the way I saw it too. A promising medical student who might get a good position would be good for her career. Besides, an inexperienced man longing for love might be easier to manipulate.
The way Edith just assumed that they would sleep together again after decades of not seeing each other also implies to me that she doesn't take sex too seriously, as DM obviously does.
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:32
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That's the way I saw it too. A promising medical student who might get a good position would be good for her career. Besides, an inexperienced man longing for love might be easier to manipulate.
The way Edith just assumed that they would sleep together again after decades of not seeing each other also implies to me that she doesn't take sex too seriously, as DM obviously does.
So Edith needs a man to promote her career? Really? She got into one of the best med schools in England, and the poor little thing can't make it without a man!
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:47
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So Edith needs a man to promote her career? Really? She got into one of the best med schools in England, and the poor little thing can't make it without a man!
Sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear. No, I don't think she needed him for her career, but having a partner in the top of the same profession can be helpful. Besides, I can't see Edith chosing someone who isn't equally successful as she is. I know people like that, of both genders, who pay much attention that their partners are someone "to be proud of", which means translated in their languange that they are successful.
And before someone gets the last statement wrong, I personally believe you can be proud of a partner no matter what job he's doing, including responsibly caring for a family (which is not valued enough in today's society IMHO).
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Old 13-07-2013, 00:59
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That's the way I saw it too. A promising medical student who might get a good position would be good for her career. Besides, an inexperienced man longing for love might be easier to manipulate.
The way Edith just assumed that they would sleep together again after decades of not seeing each other also implies to me that she doesn't take sex too seriously, as DM obviously does.
So it's as if she's the man in this relationship.
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Old 13-07-2013, 01:05
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That's the way I saw it too. A promising medical student who might get a good position would be good for her career. Besides, an inexperienced man longing for love might be easier to manipulate.
The way Edith just assumed that they would sleep together again after decades of not seeing each other also implies to me that she doesn't take sex too seriously, as DM obviously does.
I think that Edith's desire to get Martin back to London was a perverse desire to ease some sort of embarrassment. It took her a few encounters before she started up as a "predator". She noticed in their encounters that he was masculine, tall and drop dead sexy. She was probably reminiscing about how...to her great surprise...was shall we say...good in the sack. I was
so elated when he made up his mind and left her. She should have been humiliated and he told her in plain English "Maybe I just didn't want to be with you."

Interestingly enough she didn't hear him. Oh she heard him but her selfishness and self centered ness rendered her deaf to Martin's truth. That statement eas one of the plainest ,most honest things that the Doc ever said in all the series. It was a profound statement of HOW HE FELT...an astronomical leap for him. She, in her conceited denial still said,"I'll see you in London." What an unctuous witch!
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Old 13-07-2013, 01:16
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Hey, NewPark, check this out. Good news. Oh, and PoorRichard, wherever you are, you might want to take a look too. There's a John Marquez tidbit for you. Hah.

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Last edited by Biffpup : 13-07-2013 at 01:18. Reason: A fun change of initials
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Old 13-07-2013, 01:24
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That's the way I saw it too. A promising medical student who might get a good position would be good for her career. Besides, an inexperienced man longing for love might be easier to manipulate.
The way Edith just assumed that they would sleep together again after decades of not seeing each other also implies to me that she doesn't take sex too seriously, as DM obviously does.
Edith assumed that Ellingham would, of course, leap into bed with her as soon as she said the word. Why? Because she is Venus personified as everyone knows, skilled in the arts of love, passion, and romance. Therefore when Martin left the hotel at her conference, she just did not understand. She therefore assumed that it was HIS issue, and not because of her. In some ways I feel sort of sorry for her. His rejection of her must have been crushing, yet yer ego would turn the fault onto him. Oh my God... sorry for Edith? Lord, I need therapy!

Rob
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Old 13-07-2013, 02:06
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One of the things we have discussed before is that when Martin feels he is getting emotional and losing control he drops into medical-speak because that is where he is most comfortable. Growing up there was no room for emotions in that family and the only adult relationship that we know he has had was with a woman who is not at all emotional.

So that is scary territory for him and he needs to go to a comfortable place - medicine.
I believe that there has always been a tendency to believe that Edith seduced Martin while in Medical School. He was a brilliant student with the physical attributes of being tall, strong and malleable. He was putty in her hands. These many years later he has grown. I believe that he has the sexual know how that perhaps Edith has cultivated but still does not handle the true emotion of love for another. I think that this naïveté is what you see in the "sandalwood" question or the "emotional" remark. Yes the Doc has had sex, but it did not really mesh with love. That's why the innocent "emotional" statements and the queries of hormonal effects. The man is feeling his own emotions for the first time.
At the risk of offending anyone with another "not to get too graphic statement," but Martin was in his 20s when he had a relationship with Edith. Men in that age group are physiologically much more focused on the sexual aspects of a relationship rather than the emotional aspects. Twenty years later, Martin has shifted to the emotional side, and he is very uncomfortable with this new state of being.
In terms of DM's romantic side, I don't think what he and Edith had was "romantic" as such, I don't think there would be candles and rose petals. But I believe there was trust and intimacy - But Edith ran off for her career and shattered DM. Perhaps he sees it as nonsense because he TRIED the romance side of things and still lost the girl.
By the time he gets to Louisa it's been a long time since hes been in a relationship and he's a little rusty. Also the comments he made to Louisa might not have offended Edith, he only knows Edith remember. My husband is hopeless at romance etc - his father doesn't bother thus he's never had a role model or learnt HOW to be romantic. This might be DM's problem. Also why I will ensure my son sees a few chick flick so he knows how to treat a lady!
Right, I think Martin's only real previous experience with "romance" was with the unemotional, somewhat prickly, scientific Edith, who showed us in S4 what's "normal" for her and Martin. He told her her perfume smelled like cheese. She told him his breath had a metallic smell. That's normal for these two. Neither freaked out over it.

And I agree with Shop Girl and others in previous discussions that when Martin feels emotional or feels a loss of control coming on, he automatically goes into medical speak to regain a sense of control. The problem is that he doesn't realize how offensive this can be for a woman, especially since he tends to launch into a speech about odors.

You know, it's dawned on me that he also did this to Aunt Ruth after that emotional hug in S5. It wasn't so much medical speak, but he did divert to the smell thing. Big emotional moment and hug with his aunt followed instantly by, "This house stinks. Regurgitated breast milk." And, of course, he also did it after the huge emotional moment of James Henry's birth when he helpfully explained about the baby's misshapen head. Thanks for that, Martin.

It's interesting that at the end of S5 he was able to express emotion, finally managing to spit it out, that he loves Louisa, and he didn't immediately feel the need to divert everything toward a smell or medical speak. I think we're supposed to see this as major progress (and it is). He expressed it pretty plainly and simply. He's not on the verge of tears like in S4. He doesn't immediately switch to med-speak like in the past. It's just a fact. He loves her. A really big moment for him.
Going over this controversy/discussion, I think all of you are right. My opinion on Martin's incompetence was just wishful thinking. Very well done, Shop Girl, Mofromco, DMfan, leannethemouse and Biffpup--or as the English would say, BRILLIANT!
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Old 13-07-2013, 02:22
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I think that Edith's desire to get Martin back to London was a perverse desire to ease some sort of embarrassment. It took her a few encounters before she started up as a "predator". She noticed in their encounters that he was masculine, tall and drop dead sexy. She was probably reminiscing about how...to her great surprise...was shall we say...good in the sack.
Woof!

Oh, pardon me. That was my reaction to "masculine, tall, and drop dead sexy". And "good in the sack".

I was so elated when he made up his mind and left her. She should have been humiliated and he told her in plain English "Maybe I just didn't want to be with you."

Interestingly enough she didn't hear him. Oh she heard him but her selfishness and self centered ness rendered her deaf to Martin's truth. That statement eas one of the plainest ,most honest things that the Doc ever said in all the series. It was a profound statement of HOW HE FELT...an astronomical leap for him. She, in her conceited denial still said,"I'll see you in London." What an unctuous witch!
It's true. A big deal for Martin to clearly vocalize something like that. It's a rare moment with someone of the opposite sex in which he knows his own mind, what's right for him (or who) and what he wants from life (or who) and he very clearly states it. Edith is so egotistical and self-centered that it flies right over her head (I'm sitting here doing that "whoosh" thing with my hand over my head; do you see it?).

The history of Martin and Edith is fascinating, as this discussion has proved. We're provided with just enough information to realize the relationship was significant, at least for him, but we don't have enough info from her perspective to call it with certainty, so we all have our own ideas. I think it was a Big Deal life event for Martin. It may also have been at the time for Edith, but in the end she chose career over him. We don't know with certainty if that meant she was using him (for sex, as a study partner, as a friend, or all of the above) or if she was as enamored as he for a time, but changed her mind. It could be that she wanted him to go with her but wasn't ready for marriage. There are loads of possibilities.

That's one of the things they do so well in DM. They provoke us, tease us, but don't lay it all out there in front of us. It isn't all put out on a platter, to use Tishellspeak. That can be frustrating, but gives us lots to talk about.

For me, as I've said, the two most stunning things we learn about Martin through Edith are that he once, in his younger days, was in love to the degree that he wanted marriage, and ended up brokenhearted, if we're to judge by Auntie Joan's reaction to Edith (or Auntie Jill ), and he wrote poetry! This little morsel of extraordinary information was dangled out there one time and not mentioned again, or explained, or revisited. At least not yet. Martin Ellingham, straight-laced, buttoned up, inept (or unable!) in expressing his feelings, once wrote poetry! And it was good poetry. Emotional, well-written, touching poetry. Holy guacamole, Batman, this is intriguing stuff!

I wonder if this is something that eventually, in S6 or 7, will be referenced or revisited. BP has a tendency to pull old issues and references out of their hats, after all. They seem to know we're paying attention and that we don't forget.

Spoiler
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Old 13-07-2013, 02:36
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Woof!

Oh, pardon me. That was my reaction to "masculine, tall, and drop dead sexy". And "good in the sack".



It's true. A big deal for Martin to clearly vocalize something like that. It's a rare moment with someone of the opposite sex in which he knows his own mind, what's right for him (or who) and what he wants from life (or who) and he very clearly states it. Edith is so egotistical and self-centered that it flies right over her head (I'm sitting here doing that "whoosh" thing with my hand over my head; do you see it?).

The history of Martin and Edith is fascinating, as this discussion has proved. We're provided with just enough information to realize the relationship was significant, at least for him, but we don't have enough info from her perspective to call it with certainty, so we all have our own ideas. I think it was a Big Deal life event for Martin. It may also have been at the time for Edith, but in the end she chose career over him. We don't know with certainty if that meant she was using him (for sex, as a study partner, as a friend, or all of the above) or if she was as enamored as he for a time, but changed her mind. It could be that she wanted him to go with her but wasn't ready for marriage. There are loads of possibilities.

That's one of the things they do so well in DM. They provoke us, tease us, but don't lay it all out there in front of us. It isn't all put out on a platter, to use Tishellspeak. That can be frustrating, but gives us lots to talk about.

For me, as I've said, the two most stunning things we learn about Martin through Edith are that he once, in his younger days, was in love to the degree that he wanted marriage, and ended up brokenhearted, if we're to judge by Auntie Joan's reaction to Edith (or Auntie Jill ), and he wrote poetry! This little morsel of extraordinary information was dangled out there one time and not mentioned again, or explained, or revisited. At least not yet. Martin Ellingham, straight-laced, buttoned up, inept (or unable!) in expressing his feelings, once wrote poetry! And it was good poetry. Emotional, well-written, touching poetry. Holy guacamole, Batman, this is intriguing stuff!

I wonder if this is something that eventually, in S6 or 7, will be referenced or revisited. BP has a tendency to pull old issues and references out of their hats, after all. They seem to know we're paying attention and that we don't forget.

Spoiler

I think the fact that Edith could recite Martin's poem 20ish years later seems to indicate that it meant quite a bit to her. Maybe she wasn't quite so frosty in her youth.
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Old 13-07-2013, 03:03
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I think the fact that Edith could recite Martin's poem 20ish years later seems to indicate that it meant quite a bit to her. Maybe she wasn't quite so frosty in her youth.
Good point!
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Old 13-07-2013, 03:59
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Woof!

Martin Ellingham, straight-laced, buttoned up, inept (or unable!) in expressing his feelings, once wrote poetry! And it was good poetry. Emotional, well-written, touching poetry. Holy guacamole, Batman, this is intriguing stuff!
Love ya Biff! You have SUCH a way with words!
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