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OFCOM Sells Off The 800Mhz Band Then The 700Mhz Band - What's Next?


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Old 20-02-2013, 00:25
reslfj
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This could allow the PSB muxes to carry all the channels in at least 720p50/1080i by ´late 201x'.
No it couldn't - everyone would need new boxes. They'll have to stick with AVC unless they want a proper DSO2.
I think a proper DSO2 is in the cards. If the CEPT countries agrees to clear the 700 MHz band in Europe (and I am far from sure they will) a new - say GE17 - channel allocation agreement will make a lot of sense. Moving to more SFN based networks, maybe using a more towers with less power in border areas or using some VHF channels in border areas in the border areas.

The DVB-T2 can fit into a DVB-T based allocation plan - but using the best DVB-T2 can provide will allow much better channel allocations.

With a box price of £30 price (or less) it will not be any problem to transmit some HEVC compressed channels by 2018-2020 - DSO2 or not - viewers will likely not even be asked.

Lars
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Old 20-02-2013, 05:15
jj20x
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I was thinking that transmitter-to-transmitter would be at the higher frequencies, transmitter-to-home would be UHF. But like I said, it was just a random thought.
Transmitter to transmitter is taken off-air or over fibre, there isn't a separate network.
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Old 20-02-2013, 05:43
Spot
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There's a chap being interviewed on Five Live at the moment who's some sort of expert who is talking about the frequencies becoming available to phone companies and is talking about 700 Mhz as if it's coming soon!
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Old 20-02-2013, 09:50
reslfj
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There's a chap being interviewed on Five Live at the moment who's some sort of expert who is talking about the frequencies becoming available to phone companies and is talking about 700 Mhz as if it's coming soon!
THe 800 MHz band and the 2600 MHz band have just been sold.
Ofcom announces winners of the 4g mobile auction

But the 700 MHz will not be before the 2019-2020 timeframe - and it may not even happen in Europe.

Lars
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Old 20-02-2013, 10:24
reslfj
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The 800 MHz band and the 2600 MHz band have just been sold.
Ofcom announces winners of the 4g mobile auction
New thread about the auction results here:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1800247

This thread is about the 700 MHz band.

Lars
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Old 20-02-2013, 11:00
Spot
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THe 800 MHz band and the 2600 MHz band have just been sold.
Ofcom announces winners of the 4g mobile auction

But the 700 MHz will not be before the 2019-2020 timeframe - and it may not even happen in Europe.

Lars
Yes, I know that, but he was saying 'well there's 800 Mhz now and then 700 Mhz to come afterwards' as if it's going to happen next month!
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Old 20-02-2013, 11:08
d'@ve
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New thread about the auction results here:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1800247

This thread is about the 700 MHz band.

Lars
This thread is supposed to be about what could happen after (if) both are sold off!

For anyone who's interested in the mobile phones implications of 800MHz, here is the 4G auction thread for the 800MHz band and others, in the Mobile Phones board: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1800223

Last but not least, for the political implications of the £1 billion auction shortfall: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1800233
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Old 20-02-2013, 11:40
reslfj
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This thread is supposed to be about what could happen after (if) both are sold off!
Agee - and as I wrote above "This thread is about the 700 MHz band."

For anyone who's interested in the mobile phones implications of 800MHz, here is the 4G auction thread for the 800MHz band and others, in the Mobile Phones board: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1800223
Thanks for the link to the thread in the mobile forum.
But this is the terrestrial forum and we focus on the implications of LTE800 for DDT coverage etc.

Lars
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Old 20-02-2013, 12:42
Marti S
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Random thought: the mobile phone operators like the lower frequency bands becuase their signals get better penetration indoors and travel further (among lots of reasons). Most TV aerials are roof mounted. Why can't DTT use the higher frequency bands? I guess you'd need more transmitters, but if the local relays were replaced with a greater number of higher-band relays you'd also have a lot more UHF spectrum to flog off, because only the main transmitters would use UHF.

Gary
Actually higher frequencies penetrate solid objects like walls better than lower frequencies
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Old 20-02-2013, 15:36
lstar337
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Actually higher frequencies penetrate solid objects like walls better than lower frequencies
At comparative power?

My memory of physics tells me that low frequency signals (long wavelength) pass around obstacles, but high frequency (short wavelength) signals like to bounce off of hard surfaces such as walls.

The exception is very high energy short wavelength signals (X-Ray etc.), these will pass through solid objects.

This is my simplistic recollection.

*Sits and waits for somebody to prove I know nothing.
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Old 20-02-2013, 15:42
DX30
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Actually higher frequencies penetrate solid objects like walls better than lower frequencies
From the ofcom strategy statement http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/con...egy/statement/

Lower frequency spectrum is favoured by many popular services, including TV and mobile telephony, because it can pass through walls and other obstructions more easily than higher frequency spectrum, improving service coverage.
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Old 20-02-2013, 22:09
reslfj
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Actually higher frequencies penetrate solid objects like walls better than lower frequencies
Originally Posted by Ofcom
Lower frequency spectrum is favoured by many popular services, including TV and mobile telephony, because it can pass through walls and other obstructions more easily than higher frequency spectrum, improving service coverage.
Marti S has a point - e.g. take clear glass and light. Deep infra-red can't pass, but higher frequencies like yellow can. This is the original greenhouse effect.

In the 500-3000 MHz range the energy absorption, reflection etc. are not necessarily an increasing functions of frequency for all building materials.

I guess Ofcom wanted to promote the 800 MHz band and did not want to name exceptions. It is true that lower frequencies can travel longer and cover larger areas.
(power levels being equal)

Lars
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Old 21-02-2013, 15:59
Marti S
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Actually what I said isnt entirely true, it depends on the object, it seems concrete is better at UHF and 8" of brick has the lowest attenuation at 3230 MHz, I wont post a link because its a rather big technical pdf
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Old 21-02-2013, 20:43
reslfj
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Actually what I said isnt entirely true, it depends on the object, it seems concrete is better at UHF and 8" of brick has the lowest attenuation at 3230 MHz, ...
I think the point is that the major argument for using UHF ( <1GHz) spectrum is the ability to cover larger areas - i,.e. larger cells.
The attenuation in building materials is much less of an argument.

Now a larger cell size only makes sense in areas with little offered 4G traffic per km^2 - otherwise it is better to use higher frequencies with smaller cell sizes and better frequency reuse.

Higher frequencies also allows much smaller antennas and smaller devices.

Lars
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Old 23-02-2013, 20:38
ntscuser
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OFCOM is selling off the 800Mhz Band and now wants to sell off the 700Mhz band between now and 2018 - what will be next in regards to DTT?

Is there any more bands that they can sell off after the 700Mhz band or have they run out of spectrum themselves to sell off to the Mobile Phone companies?

Any Thoughts?
Yes, the mobile companies won't be happy until they own the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

Big business is the only thing which matters in Britain today, public service means nothing.
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Old 23-02-2013, 22:01
tvmad-alan
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OFCOM has let the nation down over the years as DTT/ Freeview / Ondigital / ITV Digital came on air with 6 muxes and a mix of prices from free, cheap to high priced sky & sports channels.

7pm on Sunday 15th November 1998 was the big switch on....

We were told that we could get more muxes if we all went digital and closed the five national channels to free up space and allow movement of muxes to give space on transmitters around the UK to give 98% of the people all channels....

Yet we still have what is known as freeview lite were only 3 muxes are able to be seen... WHY?

We were told that after the DSO ( digital switch over ) that power on the digital muxes would be at the same as old system, but no they are still no were near the power of the old system, so that people are still having to have power amps to get a good signal for all local muxes that do not break up in bad weathers or passing transport etc..... WHY ?

The Low space on DTT has given us channels that need to sell space and time to make money and this means shopping & betting all over the EPG and many adult channels at night on public TV system.

We have HD Digital mux made out of the six old muxes that are too high price for channel 5 HD to join even after bidding was opened..... WHY?

OFCOM has just said that it will allow bidding for two muxes on space form our old national TV channels on DTT.... BUT for HD only and for TV companies only to have them for 5 years only after they spend £ Millions on bidding and changing Transmitters......WHY would any company at this time spend so much ? ( Get real OFCOM, look at the 4G bids prices that all normal people on this forum told you that they was no way you would get near the price of 3G bidding )

OFCOM has put what MP's say as what is good for public TV, Radio, Phone etc....when in real they have mess up so much in other public services....WHY ? OFCOM should work for the nation as whole in bring services that are fair and right for all and public services to be the best and free for all at the cost to private services if needed...


Freeview should have10 muxes for SD services and 4 HD muxes and plans for 4XHD/superHD mux and plans to drop some space from SD services as HD items become normal for all UK.
And a real EPG that allows channels like ITV to sell air time, but to put that channel in the right space on the EPG and Internet, pay services to be given areas on the listings, plus allow allow data for full recording of new seasons and other show data.....

We need to be able to watch our TV in any place in the UK and move around in cars, trans, bikes or just walking by DTT....... 4G will be to costly for many to see players on items, SO DTT is only place for live TV and other TV services...
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Old 23-02-2013, 22:23
el_bardos
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Yes, the mobile companies won't be happy until they own the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

Big business is the only thing which matters in Britain today, public service means nothing.
700MHz is military spectrum, so public services aren't losing anything.

As for owning the whole spectrum, take a look at how much the military have compared to all the mobile operators combined.
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Old 23-02-2013, 22:52
alanwarwic
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Big business is the only thing which matters in Britain today, public service means nothing.
You could fibre cable the whole UK, then locally we all wirelessly link in, thus negating the need for 99.9% of the airwaves.

Business, its a funny old thing.
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:16
ntscuser
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You could fibre cable the whole UK, then locally we all wirelessly link in, thus negating the need for 99.9% of the airwaves.
And they could charge us £100 a week to access it, which has been their goal all along.
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:17
Colin_London
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700MHz is military spectrum, so public services aren't losing anything.
Urrr - with respect what are you on about?

700MHz is currently used for Digital Terrestrial Broadcasting. It is not in use by the Military. That is why we are debating its potential loss to Mobile services here
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:22
Colin_London
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When everyone has Superfast Broadband connections there will be no need for Terrestrial, or Satellite TV for that matter, and they can turn over the whole broadcasting spectrum to 5G or whatever it is by then (allowing people to watch whilst mobile).

But that is a while away yet.

As a sign of what is to come however the PSB channels are included in the BT linear IPTV trials currently ongoing in addition to the pay channels.
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:26
ntscuser
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When everyone has Superfast Broadband connections there will be no need for Terrestrial, or Satellite TV for that matter, and they can turn over the whole broadcasting spectrum to 5G or whatever it is by then (allowing people to watch whilst mobile).

But that is a while away yet.

As a sign of what is to come however the PSB channels are included in the BT linear IPTV trials currently ongoing in addition to the pay channels.
Not everyone has or wants an internet connection whereas almost everyone has or wants a free-to-air TV service.

I'm also sick of asymmetric and contended internet lines being described as "Superfast Broadband" because it isn't but that is another subject.
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:52
Colin_London
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Not everyone has or wants an internet connection whereas almost everyone has or wants a free-to-air TV service.
But within a few years the number of people who don't want an internet connection is going to be small enough that it can be ignored. Withdraw OTA TV and they'll be forced onto the net.

I'm also sick of asymmetric and contended internet lines being described as "Superfast Broadband" because it isn't but that is another subject.
10Mbps throughput is what is necessary to broadcast HDTV to viewers over their internet connections. Broadcasting the same stream to many viewers via UDP/Multicast is much more efficient than the current arrangements.
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Old 24-02-2013, 00:11
alanwarwic
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Not everyone has or wants an internet connection whereas almost everyone has or wants a free-to-air TV service.
If the cable was already in there, then distribution costs would in fact be cheaper.


Free competition does not make for great infrastructure.
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Old 24-02-2013, 00:13
ntscuser
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But within a few years the number of people who don't want an internet connection is going to be small enough that it can be ignored. Withdraw OTA TV and they'll be forced onto the net.
Why should they be forced? Many will be elderly or disabled and have neither the resources to pay for a connection nor the inclination to learn how to use one.

Why for that matter should the rest of us be forced to piss about with an internet connection when all we want to do is switch on the TV and watch the programme of our choice?

And of course once the telecoms companies have a monopoly of the TV service they can charge us as much as they want to use it.
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