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Oscar Pistorius Bail Hearing Begins


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Old 22-02-2013, 12:19
Pootmatoot
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Well I'm not going to argue the point with you. I know what athletes, bodybuilders etc use it for as do others on this thread.


I'm not quite sure why you're presuming he doesn't just use it for sexual dysfunction.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:19
francie
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Politically it's being taken very seriously. The minister for women and children Lulu Xingwana was in court on the first day.
So it should be taken seriously. It took this country long enough to recognise and act upon, it's still far from perfect but a hell of a lot better than it used to be.

SA just seems so out of control and as much as I would love to visit the country I just can't bring myself to do it.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:20
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What "dramatic sobbing"?

Early reports of sobbing tuned out to be untrue.

He held his head in his hands. Is that what you mean by "dramatic sobbing"?

If you have a link to footage of a sudden and dramatic change in demeanour, by all means post it.

But the last thing this discussion needs is wild exaggeration and overly emotive spin based on third hand hearsay.


http://celebritytoob.com/celebrity-n...ying-in-court/
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:20
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Well if you're of the camp that suspects that this was the horrible end of a period of brutal domestic violence, "not caring about Reeva's death" isn't a vile thing to think, it's quite likely.
What period of brutal domestic violence? Do you mean the shooting itself?
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:20
LH1
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It's a good theory in parts, and I must say I have wondered how he managed to get four hits out of four whilst shooting blind. It would obviously be possible if he fired them all in the same direction, and that is where she was.

I cant think they wouldn't have established if extra shots had been fired though.
I know the toilet area is small but how would he know exactly where she was to be on target? Unless of course they were arguing with her being behind the door and him on the other side not being able to get in because she had locked it.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:21
petertard
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If ballistics show the bullets that hit Reeva have insufficient damage to be consistent with passing through the door, then OP's defence is in real trouble, unless he admits he shot her through the open door, and then his lawyers will have to admit that OP lied and then devise the new defence. Much better to admit the truth now.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:21
Mrstim
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After reading the article, I am now convinced he will get bail. I still don't think he should get bail if the decision is based on prison conidtions: why should he get different treatment because he is rich?
If he is granted bail I don't think it is because he is rich, the disabled gentleman in the article was also granted bail, he just couldn't afford to pay it.

I doubt they offer bail on the basis of who can and cant afford it.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:21
Yeah_Jackie
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I'm not quite sure why you're presuming he doesn't just use it for sexual dysfunction.
I'm not quite sure why you are presuming he does.

Well actually I am ...
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:22
Pootmatoot
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Oh please. There's nothing to indicate that happened at all.

Of course there is, it's clearly a possible direction that the prosecution may take in the main trail. That's exactly how they're likely to paint him, based on previous domestic incidents.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:22
bollywood
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Maybe the burglar locked the bathroom door from inside so he could steal toothpaste and toilet paper, then escape out the bathroom window.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:22
Deep Purple
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He alleges that he believes he stood between an armed intruder and an escape route of that armed intruder.

If we are to believe he genuinely thought that, how could that not involve thinking your life was in danger?

I don't know about you, but if I thought there was an armed intruder in our bathroom, and knew they had to get past me to flee the scene, I'd feel plenty threatened.
That will be for a court to decide upon, and decide whether his actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

He has no grounds to believe a burglar is in there. Th e chances of that, ahead of it being his girlfriend were remote in the extreme.

He had a gun, and could cover any escape of the imaginary burglar anyway, and he could have ensured the safety of his girlfriend at the same time.

I wouldn't call what he did reasonable in the circumstances.

He's in a guarded compound too, with no history of burglary, and burglars dont tend to go through occupied bedrooms to use the toilet.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:23
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His 4 bullets passing through the locked door without him being able to aim at the target are supposed to have scored 4 hits, none of them missing an unseen target, with hits to the knee, hand, arm, and the fatal head shot.

Shooting at an unseen target through a locked door, despite shooting into a confined space, the relatively small toilet cubicle, you would be lucky to secure 1 hit out of 4, with 3 bullets missing the target altogether. Indeed, all 4 might miss the target, and if 1 did hit, it could not be so precisely positioned, and would most likely hit the target somewhere in the torso, where the target is largest.

OP secured the best hits for immobilising the target and removing any potential weapon and then to kill the target.

His 4 hits are like those you would get if you were a very good shot aiming at a target, such as the target areas you would aim at on a pistol range with an blacked out target, the intruder type of target but just the outline.

You would see to hit the knee to immobilise the intruder, then hit the hand in case he had a gun, then the other arm in case he had another, then the head shot to kill the intruder.

Firing through a locked door at an unseen target just is not going to get those hits.

What I think really happened is that he was under the apprehension that there was an intruder and shot Reeva, to immobile the intruder, disarm him and then kill him. He shot her through the open toilet door with his pistol training taking over as if under "automatic pilot" and did not stop until he delivered the head shot, the fatal shot.

She was holding her mobile phone in her hand and he mistook this for a gun, and acted in self defence, but also with an "irresistible impulse" to kill the intruder.

The light may have been dim, and he saw the outline of a figure and shot at it. Only after the 4 bullets were discharged and the figure fell down dead, did he realise it was Reeva.

He then became rational again and realised this looked very bad, so he took her downstairs and then came up with the story that he shot through a locked door and could not tell if it was her. So, he went back and shot 4 extra bullets through the door, picked up the extra cartridges and bullets and flushed them down the toilet. He also tried to hide her mobile phone.

He thought it would look like her intended to kill her if he would admit to shooting through an open door, but he could have the defence of self defence and diminished responsibility.

This explains the 2 sets of 4 shots 17 minutes apart.

His apprenhension was that what he saw was an intruder. Acting under an irresistible impulse, he would not have even realised when he got out of bed that she was not there.

Botha went with the story of the bullets being shot through the closed door, but he is no great brain, The new guy might be able to work out that it does not add up to the precision of the hits to Reeva.
If his intent was to kill the target, it makes no sense to immobilise first, then kill. Rather than shoot to kill fro the start.

Also, is the assumption here that he had some light? In which case he would have seen it was Reeva, and your theory collapses right there.

I don't think the shots would have beeb like shooting at a range at all. Unless the targets at your typical shooting range are only a few feet away.

You talk about him becoming rational quite far into your theory. But wasn't he being rational where he fired shots to immobilise the target, and then a fatal fourth shot?
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:24
Pootmatoot
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What period of brutal domestic violence? Do you mean the shooting itself?

I mean the picture that the prosecution occasionally hinted toward, with him as an angry and violent man.

I'm not saying whether it's true or not, just that it's a likely route they'll take in the trial.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:24
aggs
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I'm not quite sure why you're presuming he doesn't just use it for sexual dysfunction.
By the same token, why are you presuming he does?

Athletes have been banned for taking testosterone as a steroid for decades and there is a move towards taking naturally occuring substances which circumvent the banned drugs list.

He is an elite athlete who has just competed in the Olympics. I would have been more surprised if they hadn't found natural supplements in the house, to be honest - and I would expect them to be found in the homes of quite a few elite athletes.

One thing for sure, as an elitie athlete, his baseline blood values will be well documented and if there was a spike in any of the hormone levels, that will show if he even used the stuff that night or not.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:24
MadMoo40
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If ballistics show the bullets that hit Reeva have insufficient damage to be consistent with passing through the door, then OP's defence is in real trouble, unless he admits he shot her through the open door, and then his lawyers will have to admit that OP lied and then devise the new defence. Much better to admit the truth now.
What are you talking about?

Nothing has come out of SA to suggest that the bullets weren't fired through a door.

Lets face it, we've had made up rumours about steroids being found, and made up rumours about her head being battered with a cricket bat and made up rumours surrounding the order of phone calls made ..... but they don't seem to have disputed that the shots were fired through a door.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:24
Shappy
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If he is granted bail I don't think it is because he is rich, the disabled gentleman in the article was also granted bail, he just couldn't afford to pay it.

I doubt they offer bail on the basis of who can and cant afford it.
I just meant that jail conditions should not be pertinent in the decision to grant bail unless it is also pertinent for all other disabled prisoners.

The disabled guy from the article was held on alleged fraud charges, which is far less serious than premeditated murder, so their eligibility for bail doesn't compare.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:25
Deep Purple
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I know the toilet area is small but how would he know exactly where she was to be on target? Unless of course they were arguing with her being behind the door and him on the other side not being able to get in because she had locked it.
I think it is quite likely that following a blazing row, she's locked herself in the bathroom, and he's gone into a rage, and fired wildly through the door, maybe aiming at an area he didn't expect her to be in.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:25
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Maybe the burglar locked the bathroom door from inside so he could steal toothpaste and toilet paper, then escape out the bathroom window.
Or maybe the intruder got in through the open bathroom window, heard Oscar moving around in the bedroom and hid in the toilet, planning on re-emerging and killing them both the moment Oscar went back to bed. Totally plausible and, given the country, very possible.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:25
Pootmatoot
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I'm not quite sure why you are presuming he does.

Well actually I am ...

Because that's exactly what it says it does on the box? If someone took a paracetamol, I'm guess it's probably because they had an ache or pain somewhere.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:25
francie
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Maybe the burglar locked the bathroom door from inside so he could steal toothpaste and toilet paper, then escape out the bathroom window.
As you do.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:25
MadMoo40
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I mean the picture that the prosecution occasionally hinted toward, with him as an angry and violent man.

I'm not saying whether it's true or not, just that it's a likely route they'll take in the trial.
Post mortem results showed that the only injuries to her body were those of the gun shots. No smashed head, no buising, no evidence of a physical assault.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:26
Yeah_Jackie
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I mean the picture that the prosecution occasionally hinted toward, with him as an angry and violent man.

I'm not saying whether it's true or not, just that it's a likely route they'll take in the trial.
They have no supporting evidence
that this was the horrible end of a period of brutal domestic violence
Reeva had no defensive wounds or injuries other than those caused by bullets. That was Botha's testimony.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:26
Kapellmeister
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Probable that if bail is denied it will be 'urgently' appealed at Pretoria High Court.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:26
Jakobjoe
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Bail doesnt matter if the conditions are stringent enough.What matters is for the police to get the forensics and evidence right and so find out what really happened , not what OP says happened.
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Old 22-02-2013, 12:26
francie
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I think it is quite likely that following a blazing row, she's locked herself in the bathroom, and he's gone into a rage, and fired wildly through the door, maybe aiming at an area he didn't expect her to be in.
or maybe aiming at "her voice"?
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