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What idiot has inflicted Time Team with signing?


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Old 10-03-2013, 17:24
BBBM Andy
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I just ast down to watch Time Team on C4+1 and found someone in their infinite wisdom has decided to force us to watch it with some distracting woman doing sign language across half of the picture!

I'm annoyed as hell about it! I've already both rang and written to C4, but I'm sure my comments will get filed in the bin as usual.

Why do they need sign language when it is so easy to add subtitles, which can be switched on or off by the viewer?

Why not simulcast a signed version on 4Seven, instead of waiting until tomorrow night to make us watch a repeat?

My answer to C4 is that I've now dumped Time Team from my viewing week. I encourage everyone else to do the same.
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:27
Ginger Daddy
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Seems odd a programme in the middle of the day has sign language (that doesnt have a non-signed simulcast on another channel like the BBC 1pm news does)
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:28
Spdub2
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It was the last of the digs today so apart from 2 specials that's it

To answer the question why signing as well as subtitles?

Some deaf people can't use subtitles which is why there is signing for them
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:48
horns
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Why do they need sign language when it is so easy to add subtitles, which can be switched on or off by the viewer?
Because signing is some people's first language, and TV isn't solely produced for your benefit.
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:58
BBBM Andy
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It was the last of the digs today so apart from 2 specials that's it

To answer the question why signing as well as subtitles?

Some deaf people can't use subtitles which is why there is signing for them
Are you really telling me that deaf people can't read?

I could understand the signing thing if it happened a few years ago when some people still had analogue TV and no teletext, so they may not have had access to subtitles. But now everyone has digital so subtitles are universally accessible.

They don't inflict audio description for the blind on us without the ability to turn it off!
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Old 10-03-2013, 18:06
technologist
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BSL has a totally different sentential form to English and thus is is a language in its own right .
Whilst some (d) Deaf people can read. If you are reading a newspaper or a book you do it at your own rate not at the pace determined by people speaking as in subtitles.

It is one of the failures is that no one yet has found a cost effective way of doing closed signing ...
We have being trying for a long time....
But for the amount if signing required dong it in vision is a just about affordable option.
BTW many (D) deaf organisations do not favour closed methods (or overnight or community channel signing. . )
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:25
davisa
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Sign language is a good thing, but surely television has the technology to superimpose the signer on demand?
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:28
Comcen
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Signing is an excellent idea for those who want it. I suspect that the number who actually need to have Time Team signed is going to be around 1% or so. Why inflict an intrusive and irritating on screen intrusion on Channel 4 when there are other channels where signed programmes could be simultaneously broadcast (More4, 4seven, E4)?
I am not against signing but can't help that this is an example of Channel 4 imposing a politically correct doctrine on its viewers without considering the overwhelming majority and their wishes.
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:34
SmartTIIam
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Are you really telling me that deaf people can't read?

I could understand the signing thing if it happened a few years ago when some people still had analogue TV and no teletext, so they may not have had access to subtitles. But now everyone has digital so subtitles are universally accessible.

They don't inflict audio description for the blind on us without the ability to turn it off!
While you may not appreciate sign language, sign language isn't just about words (or signs). You may not pick up on it but signers get across emotions, moods, nuance and context that subtitles can't. As an exercise why don't YOU switch of the volume of your TV and rely singularly on the subtitles? I bet you would soon get fed up.
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:42
technologist
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Technology is possible but at a reasonable cost it is not ...
And with STB at a few tens of pounds it is very unlikely that the home equipment required would ever be seen to be affordable...
What is required is to send the image of the signer and a keying signal to cut it into the main picture. SO you need an extra two vision channels all be it one of limited active area and the other of limited colour. .. So your STB needs three decoders working frame accurately , then the processing to put it all together ... And compensating sound and subtitle delays.

And of course the system has to have space for the extra video streams ... So you might as well do as it is done at the moment ... Open subtitling ....

Unless you access an IP stream ... But agian this might as well be open signing ...

So if there is universal broadband then subject to legislation change the signing could be on IP only...

Avatars have been tried and may provide an answer but it still is extra bit rate ... Plus a specialised encoder and decoder to render the image and then all the Keyers, delays etc....
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:47
DuncanEmery
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what a crazy way to finish the series- after 20 years some really mess up at channel 4 I wonder if we will get an apology.
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Old 10-03-2013, 20:49
technologist
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Signing is an excellent idea for those who want it. I suspect that the number who actually need to have Time Team signed is going to be around 1% or so. Why inflict an intrusive and irritating on screen intrusion on Channel 4 when there are other channels where signed programmes could be simultaneously broadcast (More4, 4seven, E4)?
I am not against signing but can't help that this is an example of Channel 4 imposing a politically correct doctrine on its viewers without considering the overwhelming majority and their wishes.
Because the regulation says so ...
The high quota (10%) broadcasters have to have SL on the channel .. And the waver which uses the community channel is only available to the low quota broadcasters.
And is not well liked by the lobby groups.
C4 is a publicly owned broadcaster with only one PSB channel which runs at a loss .. Why should its commercial channels be used to enable it to satisfy its PSB requirements ....
We/ the government own it after all.
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Old 10-03-2013, 21:05
Nilrem
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Sign language is a good thing, but surely television has the technology to superimpose the signer on demand?
There are a few threads on it, but the short answer is not reasonably.

To superimpose a live signer would require a dedicated channel (or you could possibly fit 4 signer sub channels into the space of one normal channel), but that requires additional bandwidth and a completely new set of hardware to cope with it.

To do it like signs (data received and reconstructed from an instruction set on the receiver), is impractical due to the sheer number of signs, the fact you need to have them animated smoothly, you need to do both hands/arms and facial expressions, and at the same time allow for new signs.
Basically it would require a fairly hefty CPU with a good graphics card and lots of ram and flash memory. And that's after you solve the minor problem of sending the information needed to tell the system what signs...

IIRC one of the long time posters on here was involved in a project to try and develop a signing system for a fairly long time as the broadcasters did look into it (I think it was the BBC doing work into it).


[edit]
Whilst I was distracted with the post reply box open technologist posted
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Old 10-03-2013, 21:19
lundavra
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When the programme started and I saw the perso signing I pressed the 'i' button and it was billed as signed. I wondered at first whether there was connection between the site of the dig and deafness but I could not see any reason.

There were quite a few occasions in the programme when things being talked about were obscured by the woman signing.
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Old 10-03-2013, 21:44
lotrjw
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I know this would still mean extra bandwith but a red button stream would work as most set top boxes have that abillity. The one thing I find annoying is the signer is usualy in the 4:3 safe area which obscues a lot of the picture I know the broadcasters do this for people who use center cut out its just a shame a signal cant be sent to override that on peoples boxes so the signer can be placed at the edge of the picture at least it would save on bandwith and equipment.
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Old 10-03-2013, 21:45
theonlyweeman
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As good an idea as simulcasting signed output on another channel is, Channel 4 as a channel has to provide a certain amount of signed programming a week, content simulcasts wouldn't count...
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Old 10-03-2013, 22:49
Bandspread199
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Sorry but stop referring to Channel 4! It was, according to the OP C4+1...so watch the programme on C4 or on 4 on demand! Simplez!
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Old 10-03-2013, 23:15
Spdub2
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Sorry but stop referring to Channel 4! It was, according to the OP C4+1...so watch the programme on C4 or on 4 on demand! Simplez!
It was on the C4 version as well which is where I saw it .
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Old 10-03-2013, 23:52
PhilH36
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what a crazy way to finish the series- after 20 years some really mess up at channel 4 I wonder if we will get an apology.
Why should they,they have nothing to apologise for.
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Old 11-03-2013, 00:11
Sandytop
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Seems an odd time for Time Team even if it is Sunday. Don't they normall show first run in the evening?
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Old 11-03-2013, 00:21
Caxton
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I think it was moved earlier because of some sport on this week.
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Old 11-03-2013, 00:24
g-bhxu
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4oD does not have signing
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Old 11-03-2013, 00:49
barbeler
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4oD does not have signing
4OD is so low-res that it is totally unwatchable of a normal sized television.
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Old 11-03-2013, 06:59
Sue_Aitch
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Re Sign Language on TV: did you know there's no equivalent to http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-i...-impaired-aud5 for deaf people?
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:55
technologist
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I know this would still mean extra bandwith but a red button stream would work as most set top boxes have that abillity. .
So you are expecting D3&4 to start up another service ...?
Actually a shared stream was suggested for the High quota output. But there ere scheduling clashes , reluctance of one broadcaster to use anyone other than D4&4 for their output and a fear that a mux provider / coding company may make their SL pictures look different(better) than what they were doing on the main channel.

There Was a lot of opposition from the Lobby groups as well.

Hence the on channel overnight solution - which coupled by cheap PVRs is a very good answer as is the low quota using community channel.

likewise if the quote is increased (rather unlikely) this may Be accompanied by the service going as a IP simulcast.
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