[Sandytop]

Originally Posted by JAK99

I hope Channel 4 won't mind me showing you their response.

Thank you Channel 4, so to those who wish to know, please note the time for the unsigned repeat (albeit in the small hours of the morning.)

nb Now, isn't that the slot when the signed version is normally transmitted? I can see those requiring the signed version getting upset!

John

Bang goes my theory that it was a deliberate test to test public reaction.

[CLL Dodge]

Originally Posted by Sandytop

Bang goes my theory that it was a deliberate test to test public reaction.

itv get away with their DOG so C4 try somthing bigger?

[lotrjw]

lol thats the best post in this thread!

[JAK99]

Originally Posted by technologist

And Red Bee gets hit with service credits....

Can you explain?

[GerriP]

Originally Posted by Comcen

Signing is an excellent idea for those who want it. I suspect that the number who actually need to have Time Team signed is going to be around 1% or so. Why inflict an intrusive and irritating on screen intrusion on Channel 4 when there are other channels where signed programmes could be simultaneously broadcast (More4, 4seven, E4)?

I am not against signing but can't help that this is an example of Channel 4 imposing a politically correct doctrine on its viewers without considering the overwhelming majority and their wishes.

How breathtakingly arrogant and superior of you!

[leslie123]

There is a very simple solution and compromise which I have already seen on ITV1 in the middle of the night when showing feature films. All they need to do is transmit the signed language version of the programme on the SD version of the channel whilst transmitting the same programme on the HD version of the channel without signed language. Remember such channels as ITV2,3 and 4 are considered premium channels on Sky and as such not PSB channels so are not bound by any obligations applying to PSB channels.

[lotrjw]

Originally Posted by leslie123

There is a very simple solution and compromise which I have already seen on ITV1 in the middle of the night when showing feature films. All they need to do is transmit the signed language version of the programme on the SD version of the channel whilst transmitting the same programme on the HD version of the channel without signed language. Remember such channels as ITV2,3 and 4 are considered premium channels on Sky and as such not PSB channels so are not bound by any obligations applying to PSB channels.

well ITV2 is on the channel 3/4/5 psb MUX and in my opinion if its on there it should be psb regulated and the other channel 4 channels on that mux then there would be more psb channels to play with

[Sue_Aitch]

I should hope signers will be on BBC Two HD from its launch.

[lotrjw]

Originally Posted by Sue_Aitch

I should hope signers will be on BBC Two HD from its launch.

if they are on BBC2 SD then yes as they will both show the same programs except for Wales, Scotland and NI as their BBC 2SD has opt outs

[JAK99]

Well C4 kept their word and broadcast the Time Team repeat overnight without any screen clutter. Thank you.

One would think there must be a way of broadcasting the signer so it could be turned on or off as required like they do with the subtitles without having to broadcast the program on two separate channels or by repeating it. The signer bandwidth can't be that great and they already manage to broadcast those 'press red' overlays that can be turned off. Along with this include those channel ID DOGS so those that want them can have them and those that don't can turn them off. Everyone's happy (apart from upsetting the vanity of some channel directors.) QED.

John

[Nilrem]

The signer "overlay" would have to be a complete picture with some areas left empty (unlike subs and things like the listings which are completely rendered on the box), and as a moving image.

IIRC the red button things are either hidden channels of their own (which is why from memory the BBC had to cut the number it had to make room for BBC HD etc), or basically text overlays depending on what they are.

A signer overlay would either have to be a complete channel accessed like the red button channels (IE a hidden channel), or an additional channel with only the necessary bits for the signer that could be tuned in and overlaid at the box (requiring less bandwidth but an entirely new generation of STB's, like Blu-ray players were originally unable to do PIP for most models, until the "profile 2" units came out with the necessary extra hardware).

[Andy2]

Originally Posted by horns

Because signing is some people's first language, and TV isn't solely produced for your benefit.

So every programme should be signed then?

[Sue_Aitch]

Originally Posted by Andy2

So every programme should be signed then?

The Owl and Shaun the Sheep do not need sign language as the humour is all visual.

[JAK99]

Originally Posted by Andy2

So every programme should be signed then?

Why not a dedicated channel? Probably more use than yet another one of those DeJaVu+13 type channels which are pretty pointless now we have multichannel PVRs. If run by a PSB it could feature programmes from across the board.

[lotrjw]

Originally Posted by JAK99

Why not a dedicated channel? Probably more use than yet another one of those DeJaVu+13 type channels which are pretty pointless now we have multichannel PVRs. If run by a PSB it could feature programmes from across the board.

what a joint BBC/ITV/C4/C5 channel that would be an effort, it could be called freeSignPSB channel (the free bit comming from it being a freeview/freesat originated channel). It could show the best of the 11 different PSBs with priority on BBC1/2 and ITV, C4 and C5 with BBC3/4/kids getting next level priority then BBC News/Parliament least priority as a time share based on what programmes are being shown ect and less popular programs having overnight slots. It would have to be a jointly paid for channel and it could be in HD on the DVB-T2 MUX, this would help the BBC as the slot wouldnt be going to waste and they would only be paying a 1/4 of the running cost for a mainly simulcast/repeat channel! and would please all deaf people.

[Sue_Aitch]

Thankfully, BBC does make See Hear and Community Channel has BSL Zone prgrammes which are made in British Sign Language, but it's been a good few years since VeeTV was shown on C4.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Hewjars

An apology is required for running a program for 20yrs that seems to consist of some bunch of old men digging in a field and finding (surprise, surprise) an old wall...

You demonstrate your inquisitive nature and a thirst for learning much better than I, thank you.

[Paace]

I like to watch or record Minder on ITV4 or Ruth Rendall mysteries on ITV3 and they now have put a signing person practically in the middle of the screen, blocking out part of the actors and action frequently. It is so annoying and distracting I just give up . The signing person was never so prominent and distracting before . I think ITV must have given the contract to some new company that are doing this.

I can put up with the signing person if they are well to the right of the screen and not being so distracting in the middle.

I wrote to ITV and they replied but didn't refer to my main complaint which was about the signer being in the middle of the screen.

Here is some of their reply

As yet, unfortunately, digital technology is not available to allow
viewers to turn the signer off. Research is being carried out into this
enabling technology and a solution is not too far away.

In the meantime, like other major UK TV channels, we remain obliged to
include BSL on a small selection of programmes, many of which do
transmit in the early hours of the morning when they are less intrusive
to the majority of viewers.

[JAK99]

I still think a dedicated joint channel would be the most welcome news for those that appreciate the BSL service. Those using the service wouldn't need to jump around finding something suitable and it would be a better use for a channel than what it presently on many of them. It needn't stop overnight signed repeats either. It would be a real benefit for users.

[Sue_Aitch]

Time flies. It's ten years since British Sign Language was given official recognition by HM Government. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006m9cb

[lundavra]

Duplicate post

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by JAK99

I still think a dedicated joint channel would be the most welcome news for those that appreciate the BSL service. Those using the service wouldn't need to jump around finding something suitable and it would be a better use for a channel than what it presently on many of them. It needn't stop overnight signed repeats either. It would be a real benefit for users.

It could be done on satellite but it is unfair to expect the BBC to go to the expense of duplicate signed channels without expecting ALL other British broadcasters to do the same. It would not be cheap.

There is not space on Freeview to do it without losing other channels especially in Freeview Lite areas.

Perhaps they could run duplicate channels online to keep costs down.

[Spot]

And now a random signed episode of Butterflies is being shown on Yesterday!

[technologist]

Originally Posted by Spot

And now a random signed episode of Butterflies is being shown on Yesterday!

It holds up their (much lower ) Quota as UKTV does not use the Community channel.

Can I just point out that the "adding a signer" was close 15 years ago .... (which was used t set the quota!) it may be closer (just) but it may be delivered by IP.- but it may require a more complex STB so why not just stream a SL in vison as we see now??

A Shared channel may work but again it was discussed at the launch of DTT - when the communities were keen on having simulcast BSL .... But then some of the BSL community wanted Signing on BBC one etc ... rather than on a "red button"....
The overnight and Iplayer etc wortks well ...

[Mr Dos]

I'm a 3D designer/programmer, and I work kinda late. Feet up/tv for me is not tea-time, but the middle of the night. Invariably this late night viewing is impossible because of the gesticulating idiot taking up 1/3 of the screen. Yes I'm talking sign language. Often I might notice a program I've missed that is repeated after midnight - so I record it, only to find I've recorded the signing idiot again. Tonight Kavanagh at midnight - signed. Switched over to the news - signing again. Re-run of On the Buses - signed.

All these programs have subtitles, so the question is - how many deaf people in the UK, who can't read subtitles, are up at 2 am watching On the Buses? Answer - none. How many people like me keeping strange hours would like to watch On the Buses at 2 am? Answer - probably loads.

Surely in this world of DVB, Freeview, HD, satellite etc it is possible to switch the signing on or off as required (like you can with subtitles, audio description). My guess is that the TV companies have disability quotas to fill, boxes to tick etc, and forcing signing on the masses is an easy way to hit the right percentage, ignoring the fact that the people who pay their wages cannot watch tv after midnight.

Anyone fancy starting a petition - 'Make Signing Optional'

BTW - funny how the shopping channels, adverts are signing free . . . .