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Doctor Who: The Bell's Of St John Prequel


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Old 24-03-2013, 13:12
Granny McSmith
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Just picking up what a previous poster wrote - she lost her Gran too. When I first watched the clip this is what I noticed most. It was the delivery of that piece of dialogue. The placing of Gran in the list and the way there was no beat after saying Gran. She went straight on without pause which made it seem like a deliberate attempt to bury the word in plain sight, if that makes sense.

Might be nothing but it just seemed odd. It seems to have worked anyway because most people are talking about her pencil and mojo instead!
It was an odd thing to put in a list of things lost and then found again. Usually when people say they have "lost" a person, they mean that person has died.

So unless Clara is using "lost" in a different sense, she lost her Gran then she found her again by closing her eyes and concentrating?

How did she do that? Or am I reading too much into it?
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Old 24-03-2013, 13:23
CD93
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Not started by me, but by CD93, who isn't even capable of directing his yawns at the correct post .
You're right, I've always had terrible aim.
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Old 24-03-2013, 13:30
pickwick
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It was an odd thing to put in a list of things lost and then found again. Usually when people say they have "lost" a person, they mean that person has died.

So unless Clara is using "lost" in a different sense, she lost her Gran then she found her again by closing her eyes and concentrating?

How did she do that? Or am I reading too much into it?
...Isn't that how Amy got the Doctor back when she lost him? And the whole world, basically.

HMMM. That could spark off some good theories
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Old 24-03-2013, 13:59
spiderboots
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I wonder if that little girls is doomed now she has met The Doctor?
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:02
GDK
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Someone just pointed out on Twitter that Moffat has had the Doctor meet Clara, Amy, River, Reinette AND Rose when they were children

(The Rose thing was just a throwaway line in the Doctor Dances, but still.)
We saw the Doctor meet Rose as a baby in FD.
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:02
saladfingers81
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And as expected this thread did turn in a bit of witless Moffat bashing. Not to mention some hilarious debate about the use of the word mojo. No wonder some people think DW fans are a sorry sad lot.

Moffat has run out of ideas has he? Based on one two minute clip which DELIBERATELY was using a familiar theme as a reference to what had gone previously? And yet the reviews for the actual first episode have so far been across the board that it is brilliant with a great and creepy central idea. Do some of you even hear yourselves sometimes? Its embarassing.
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:07
pickwick
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We saw the Doctor meet Rose as a baby in FD.
We did. We never saw him meet Martha, Donna, Astrid, Jack or any of the other RTD companions as kids, though (that I recall!), so we can't say RTD keeps repeating himself in that way. (And he was with Older!Rose, so it's a bit different anyway.)

And as expected this thread did turn in a bit of witless Moffat bashing. Not to mention some hilarious debate about the use of the word mojo. No wonder some people think DW are a sorry sad lot.

Moffat has run out of ideas has he? Based on one two minute clip which DELIBERATELY was using a familiar theme as a reference to what had gone previously? And yet the reviews for the actual first episode have so far been across the board that it is brilliant with a great and creepy central idea. Do some of you even hear yourselves sometimes? Its embarassing.
I don't see anybody but you throwing their toys out of the pram and being personally insulting because people disagree with them, so I disagree about who's "embarrassing" fandom...
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:12
saladfingers81
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We did. We never saw him meet Martha, Donna, Astrid, Jack or any of the other RTD companions as kids, though (that I recall!), so we can't say RTD keeps repeating himself in that way. (And he was with Older!Rose, so it's a bit different anyway.)


I don't see anybody but you throwing their toys out of the pram and being personally insulting because people disagree with them, so I disagree about who's "embarrassing" fandom...
It is definitely not me embarrassing fandom. Also. Its a bit difficult to be personally insulting when you haven't you know, been personally insulting. Tell me again which part of that post was personally insulting. I was commenting on a large swathe of fandom who in my opinion behave ludicrously. But i notice the whole having an opinion battle cry is only upheld for those looking to aimlessly slag off the program.
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:15
tiggerpooh
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Spoiler


Love it.
I haven't seen the clip yet, so I won't do now you've said that. I'll keep my theories the same until the show comes back next weekend.

I'll probably end up seeing the clip before then, anyway.

I'm going to be watching Assylum of the Daleks on DVD tonight. Looking forward to it. I may get a packet of microwave popcorn out and have that when I watch the DVD.
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Old 24-03-2013, 14:18
sandydune
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oi oi, what's all this then?
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Old 24-03-2013, 17:25
JDEsseintes
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Okay, so, to satisfy those on the thread who think merely pointing out a (very) recurring theme in Moffat's Who is a form of 'bashing'...

Russell T was also repetitious with certain themes (as I recall), specifically 'prophecies', and the rather trite dialogue that sometimes came with it.

'It is said that the Face of Boe will die once he has uttered his great secret'
'The child who will die in battle, so very soon!'
'A storm is approaching'
'Gallifrey will fall! Burning, burning. So burning'
'It is coming, sir. It is coming through the dark. He will knock four times'

As a literary technique, it is good at creating tension, but it wears thin quite quickly.

Moffat has carried it on, but it's usually attributed to someone who has witnessed the end result or has knowledge of it (i.e. River and the Doctor's "death", Dorium and 'the question' and so on) so it's actually more of a forewarning. The only example of the contrary I can think of is Van Gogh's 'vision', which I thought was a bit silly (he came up with a date and map reference and everything. I wish I could do that with my dreams).

So, yes, lots of writers do it, it's their 'voice'. They usually make up for it by being bloody good at other elements of the story, which both Davies and Moffat undoubtedly were / are.
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Old 24-03-2013, 17:32
saladfingers81
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Okay, so, to satisfy those on the thread who think merely pointing out a (very) recurring theme in Moffat's Who is a form of 'bashing'...

Russell T was also repetitious with certain themes (as I recall), specifically 'prophecies', and the rather trite dialogue that sometimes came with it.

'It is said that the Face of Boe will die once he has uttered his great secret'
'The child who will die in battle, so very soon!'
'A storm is approaching'
'Gallifrey will fall! Burning, burning. So burning'
'It is coming, sir. It is coming through the dark. He will knock four times'

As a literary technique, it is good at creating tension, but it wears thin quite quickly.

Moffat has carried it on, but it's usually attributed to someone who has witnessed the end result or has knowledge of it (i.e. River and the Doctor's "death", Dorium and 'the question' and so on) so it's actually more of a forewarning. The only example of the contrary I can think of is Van Gogh's 'vision', which I thought was a bit silly (he came up with a date and map reference and everything. I wish I could do that with my dreams).

So, yes, lots of writers do it, it's their 'voice'. They usually make up for it by being bloody good at other elements of the story, which both Davies and Moffat undoubtedly were / are.
Its not the pointing out of it that is bashing. It is obviously there. It is the comments from two or three posters along the lines of 'hss Moffat lost it?' as if one tiny prequel is enough to base that view on. As I said clearly not out of ideas if the reviews of The Bells are anything to go by.

I am not a Moffat fan boy. But if your going to have a go at him pick your targets.
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Old 24-03-2013, 17:56
pickwick
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Okay, so, to satisfy those on the thread who think merely pointing out a (very) recurring theme in Moffat's Who is a form of 'bashing'...

Russell T was also repetitious with certain themes (as I recall), specifically 'prophecies', and the rather trite dialogue that sometimes came with it.
My main issue with RTD's writing was the way he felt he had to make every season BIGGER and SCARIER than the one before, till we got to the stage where the Daleks had a REALITY BOMB Really like that Moffat has purposefully taken it down a notch again.

Also RTD shoved religious imagery all over the place despite his atheism, that was annoying! But yeah, I agree that all writers have stuff like this, and I disagree with saladfingers that pointing it out (even in a short webisode) is "bashing".
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:06
Granny McSmith
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My main issue with RTD's writing was the way he felt he had to make every season BIGGER and SCARIER than the one before, till we got to the stage where the Daleks had a REALITY BOMB Really like that Moffat has purposefully taken it down a notch again.

Also RTD shoved religious imagery all over the place despite his atheism, that was annoying! But yeah, I agree that all writers have stuff like this, and I disagree with saladfingers that pointing it out (even in a short webisode) is "bashing".
"Re-booting" the entire universe is taking it down a notch?
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:09
nebogipfel
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Moffat has carried it on, but it's usually attributed to someone who has witnessed the end result or has knowledge of it (i.e. River and the Doctor's "death", Dorium and 'the question' and so on) so it's actually more of a forewarning. The only example of the contrary I can think of is Van Gogh's 'vision', which I thought was a bit silly (he came up with a date and map reference and everything. I wish I could do that with my dreams).
Yes. Moffat does do the prophecy stuff, but by avoiding the mystical , religious tone of RTD keeps it more within scifi plotting. But it all involves an overuse of time travel, unfortunately.

All that fields of trenzalore stuff from Dorian came very close to the tone of "It is written in the books of the Ancients that verily and forsooth it shall come to pass....." cobblers.

As you say, good job there are other things to enjoy about their writing. An Ood once appeared to me in a dream and spake thusly: that it shall come to pass that Nebogipfel will sit down and watch the episode next week and , as is written in the scrolls of The Elders he shall have a big grin on his face.
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:21
nebogipfel
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And Van Gogh ~ I think we were supposed to think that the Alliance had planted thst info in him and hypnotised him or somesuch to have the vision and want to paint it.

Although we were never shown anyone from the alliance doing that. but I don't think it was necessarily that he had a mystical supernatural vision unaided by the alliance.

Which brings us on to Moffats habit of just assuming we will all fill in the blanks for ourselves and not worry about how or why we got from one bit of the plot to another. not that I m bashing or anything.
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:22
pickwick
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"Re-booting" the entire universe is taking it down a notch?
I mean since that I see that as topping off RTD's run, and using it as a reason to pull back.

" I got too big, Dorium. Too noisy. Time to step back into the shadows."
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:29
saladfingers81
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My main issue with RTD's writing was the way he felt he had to make every season BIGGER and SCARIER than the one before, till we got to the stage where the Daleks had a REALITY BOMB Really like that Moffat has purposefully taken it down a notch again.

Also RTD shoved religious imagery all over the place despite his atheism, that was annoying! But yeah, I agree that all writers have stuff like this, and I disagree with saladfingers that pointing it out (even in a short webisode) is "bashing".
Can I just clarify that I do not consider pointing these things out to be 'bashing'. At all. I even joked to Nebo in another post that Moffat clearly hadn't gotten over reading The Time Travellers Wife.

But don't use a two minute prequel to bash him. If you get to the end of Seven and feel he has rehashed old ideas then fair enough. Declare open season. I just think its silly and premature to use a sweet and silly little clip that equates to nothing more than a DVD extra in the scheme of things to say Moffats well of inspiration has run dry. All evidence suggests not by what has been said about The Bells...which has a neat and spooky central concept.

To further clarify I only consider two posters to have indulged in mindless digs at Moffat on here. Have also read alot of similar rubbish elsewhere however. I just find it odd how some people treat being a fan as though you have to be one or the other. As if its football or partisan politics. Team RTD. Team Moffat. Team Classic. Why? All have their good and bad points. I think most people are just Team Doctor Who. But some do have an agenda and a weird grudge against Moffat so its almost as if he can do no right.
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:32
pickwick
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Can I just clarify that I do not consider pointing these things out to be 'bashing'. At all. I even joked to Nebo in another post that Moffat clearly hadn't gotten over reading The Time Travellers Wife.

But don't use a two minute prequel to bash him. If you get to the end of Seven and feel he has rehashed old ideas then fair enough. Declare open season. I just think its silly and premature to use a sweet and silly little clip that equates to nothing more than a DVD extra in the scheme of things to say Moffats well of inspiration has run dry. All evidence suggests not by what has been said about The Bells...which has a neat and spooky central concept.
Very true about the Time Traveller's Wife, heh. And fair enough I am looking forward to Saturday despite my moaning!
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Old 24-03-2013, 19:24
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Ah! Group hug?
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Old 24-03-2013, 19:38
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I think this scene is excellent for several reasons ....

1) Okay, Moffat is reusing a trope but both the Doctor and Clara have no idea of who the other person is, compared to when this was used with Reinette, Amy and River.
2) It shows us that Clara is a compassionate child who tried to cheer up someone that was sad. I think that's lovely and it's showing a bit of human kindness. Nothing sinister in that at all.
3) It skillfully debunks nearly all of the downright annoying and baseless conspiracy theory about who Clara really is in a rather effortless manner.

Why can't people just focus on those things instead of whinging about a two and a half minute scene?

No wonder we get ridiculed as fans at times.
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Old 24-03-2013, 19:53
JDEsseintes
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I think this scene is excellent for several reasons ....

1) Okay, Moffat is reusing a trope but both the Doctor and Clara have no idea of who the other person is, compared to when this was used with Reinette, Amy and River.
2) It shows us that Clara is a compassionate child who tried to cheer up someone that was sad. I think that's lovely and it's showing a bit of human kindness. Nothing sinister in that at all.
3) It skillfully debunks nearly all of the downright annoying and baseless conspiracy theory about who Clara really is in a rather effortless manner.

Why can't people just focus on those things instead of whinging about a two and a half minute scene?

No wonder we get ridiculed as fans at times.
Oh, I'd like to think the majority of the people who have watched it actually like it, for the points you mention!

I think it's because that the previous companion's childhood played so much of a role in her relationship with the Doctor, that the similarity in imagery becomes more noticeable (Doctor and Child, having a chat). Unfortunate, as it's not really what the scene is about.
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Old 24-03-2013, 19:58
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To the sweat lodge for birch twigs! Bonding! And Kumbayah! Ill bring the acoustic guitar.
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Old 24-03-2013, 20:02
Shawn_Lunn
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Oh, I'd like to think the majority of the people who have watched it actually like it, for the points you mention!
Brilliant

My work here is done.
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Old 24-03-2013, 20:10
CD93
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Brilliant

My work here is done.
It's hard to be a satisfied Doctor Who fan
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