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Old 20-03-2013, 11:47
Sue_Aitch
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As has been said earlier, no 4:3 TVs have been on sale for many years. CRT is old news. Stop being a dinosaur.
Live and let watch and listen, DVDfever, live and let watch and listen.

I really like my bulky 4:3 early nineties CRT and the sound from the stereo speakers is just fine.

If and when this CRT does become beyond economic repair, I'll be looking to source a second hand one.

Besides, I have no room for any 2.1 or 5.1 or 7.1 sound system which seem to be the weapons of choice for getting decent sound to accompany the pics on thinscreens.
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Old 20-03-2013, 20:18
DVDfever
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On Todays Show

Bill Turnbull said

And the time is twenty five to seven

sorry eight.

And then the sports presenter said

I am not surprised they have made the clock on the screen so small we cant see it !!!!
It's no different in height from how it was before. It's just on the other side of the screen (although that seems odd given how it's different from BBC News)

Yes, you can change a digital set top box to letterbox mode, but I bet most 4:3 viewers are watching in centre cut-out. You really have to sitting right up against the television to see anything in 16:9 mode on a 14 inch set.
So, what it boils down to is that a handful of people wouldn't be able to see a clock... IF it was outside the 4:3 safe area. Which it's NOT.

Live and let watch and listen, DVDfever, live and let watch and listen.

I really like my bulky 4:3 early nineties CRT and the sound from the stereo speakers is just fine.

If and when this CRT does become beyond economic repair, I'll be looking to source a second hand one.
So? You can still watch with the digibox in letterbox mode.

Besides, I have no room for any 2.1 or 5.1 or 7.1 sound system which seem to be the weapons of choice for getting decent sound to accompany the pics on thinscreens.
Yeah, there's loads of that on Breakfast(!)
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Old 20-03-2013, 23:51
Steve9214
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Try Channel 4 Early morning comedy for lack of consistency then....

sometimes there is a clock - sometimes no clock

Sometimes programmes start at 07.00 - sometimes 07.05.
Slightly better now the early T4 music show has gone - the first sitcom could start anywhere between 07.25 and 07.40.
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Old 21-03-2013, 07:14
Sue_Aitch
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So? You can still watch with the digibox in letterbox mode.
I do, as it happens, but I know some partially sighted people prefer centre cut out.

Peace.
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Old 21-03-2013, 10:47
lotrjw
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I do, as it happens, but I know some partially sighted people prefer centre cut out.

Peace.
I think that the centre cut out should be a 14:9 cut out then there should be less issues as 14:9 safe areas would have more info than 4:3 safe areas but this is all down to the manufacturers of set top boxes who only give 3 options by default 4:3 centre cut out, 4:3 letterbox and 16:9 full frame on whatever is broadcast. 14:9 doesnt get a look in except on some freeview boxes so Ive heard. 14:9 letterboxed would suit partially sighted people better than 16:9 letterboxed
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Old 21-03-2013, 11:10
rgflynn
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I just wish they would get rid of Twitchen Michen I cant enjoy the programme watching her trying to cover her knees or legs all the time it becomes tedious.who is bothered about old rubber face's legs anyway.
I only watch when Susanne Reid is on she is much more relaxed.
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Old 21-03-2013, 11:25
RIPYorkshireTV
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I don't know, however there are still over 13,000 households with black-and-white television licences, even 45 years after the first colour television transmissions; so less than a year after the last analogue transmissions, I suspect the proportion of households still watching 4:3 television sets is probably higher than many think. Although it may be some time since it's been possible to buy a 4:3 television, a good CRT set can last a great many years. For many people television is far from being the most important thing in their life - they're not bothered about widescreen or HD, and see no reason to get rid off of a television as long as it's still in good working order.
Well, given that's the case, they won't mind if a graphic appears off screen then will they?
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Old 21-03-2013, 11:29
D.Page
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I think the placement of the weather forecast's 'time indication', during BBC Breakfast, should be relocated to the top-right of screen. It looks very odd with it placed so close above the main 'time indication'. I don't think its exact placement was given enough thought, considering where the main 'time indication' has been placed. Maybe it's just me, though.
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Old 21-03-2013, 12:15
Robert Williams
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Well, given that's the case, they won't mind if a graphic appears off screen then will they?
They might, however, get a bit miffed if the clock, a part of Breakfast television since the beginning, were to suddenly vanish one morning. It clearly is something that does matter since enough people complained about the apparent disappearance of the BBC News 24 clock a few years ago for them to move it back into the 4:3 area - and many more people watch Breakfast than the news channel.

I think that the centre cut out should be a 14:9 cut out then there should be less issues as 14:9 safe areas would have more info than 4:3 safe areas but this is all down to the manufacturers of set top boxes who only give 3 options by default 4:3 centre cut out, 4:3 letterbox and 16:9 full frame on whatever is broadcast. 14:9 doesnt get a look in except on some freeview boxes so Ive heard. 14:9 letterboxed would suit partially sighted people better than 16:9 letterboxed
For 4:3 my Panasonic DVD recorder has the options of either centre cut-out or letterbox, but in letterbox mode on BBC channels (except Parliament and 301) and ITV channels it zooms the 16:9 picture to 14:9, with no means of overriding it, so I think those two broadcasters must be sending some kind of 14:9 flag on their 16:9 transmissions which is only picked up by certain equipment.
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Old 21-03-2013, 14:08
lotrjw
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They might, however, get a bit miffed if the clock, a part of Breakfast television since the beginning, were to suddenly vanish one morning. It clearly is something that does matter since enough people complained about the apparent disappearance of the BBC News 24 clock a few years ago for them to move it back into the 4:3 area - and many more people watch Breakfast than the news channel.


For 4:3 my Panasonic DVD recorder has the options of either centre cut-out or letterbox, but in letterbox mode on BBC channels (except Parliament and 301) and ITV channels it zooms the 16:9 picture to 14:9, with no means of overriding it, so I think those two broadcasters must be sending some kind of 14:9 flag on their 16:9 transmissions which is only picked up by certain equipment.
Its a shame there isnt an option to override the 14:9 letterbox option to 16:9 letterbox. Although I think 4:3 centre cut out should be outlawed and 14:9 letterbox put in its place as people never complained when they did that on analogue so why not force that as the alternative to 16:9 letterboxing on digital and just remove that 4:3 centre cut out for good!
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Old 21-03-2013, 14:21
D.Page
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For 4:3 my Panasonic DVD recorder has the options of either centre cut-out or letterbox, but in letterbox mode on BBC channels (except Parliament and 301) and ITV channels it zooms the 16:9 picture to 14:9, with no means of overriding it, so I think those two broadcasters must be sending some kind of 14:9 flag on their 16:9 transmissions which is only picked up by certain equipment.
If I can assume, for a moment, you meant when set to 4:3 mode in the DVD recorder's set-up menu, not letterbox mode, as you've stated above (which I've put in bold), then I know what you are referring to with your Panasonic DVD recorder.

Our Panasonic DMR-ES20D displays in a (sort of) 14:9 aspect ratio when you set it to 4:3 mode in the set-up menu. I say 'sort of' because it does not show the picture in the correct proportions. If you look carefully when you have it set in this way, you will see that what it is doing is, it is showing a 4:3 centre cut-out of the 16:9 picture, and slightly squashing the picture, which results in what would appear to be the 14:9 thin black bars top and bottom, but, crucially, with incorrect proportions so that, for instance, people's faces etc are slightly too fat. Our 4:3 CRT (which our ES20D is connected to) has a picture mode which can stretch a 14:9 picture out to a 4:3 picture. When doing this with the ES20D's "4:3" mode (where it displays an incorrectly proportioned 14:9 mode), the proportions are, then, correct (resulting in a proper 4:3 centre cut-out).

It is an oversight in how the older Panasonic DVD recorders display the picture when you set it to 4:3 mode in the set-up menu. They should have sorted it out with a firmware update, really. I also have a Panasonic DMR-EH60D (which is basically the ES20D but with Hard Drive and SD card slot) and it is exactly the same in this regard. My newer Panasonic DMR-EX85 shows the picture as a proper 4:3 centre cut-out when you set it to 4:3 mode in the set-up menu, proving that it is just a quirk/oversight in the firmware of the older Panasonic DVD recorders, that never got sorted out.
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Old 21-03-2013, 15:07
Robert Williams
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If I can assume, for a moment, you meant when set to 4:3 mode in the DVD recorder's set-up menu, not letterbox mode, as you've stated above (which I've put in bold), then I know what you are referring to with your Panasonic DVD recorder.
No, I do mean 16:9 letterbox in 4:3 mode. 4:3 centre cut-out displays exactly as it should, but in 16:9 letterbox when I tune to a BBC channel (except Parliament or 301), or any ITV channel, or 4Music, after appearing in full letterbox for a few seconds, the screen then zooms up to 14:9. The only ways to override it are either to start recording, or put the subtitles on, which cause it to revert to 16:9. All other Freeview widescreen channels remain in full 16:9 letterbox at all times.

The previous DVD recorder I had, which was an equivalent model (sorry, I can't remember the model numbers), ignored the 14:9 signal and always displayed in full 16:9. Anyway, it's not something I'm all that bothered about although it does mean that the DOGS on BBC Three and BBC Four are partly cut off the screen which looks more annoying than the DOGs being there in full!
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:20
D.Page
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No, I do mean 16:9 letterbox in 4:3 mode. 4:3 centre cut-out displays exactly as it should, but in 16:9 letterbox when I tune to a BBC channel (except Parliament or 301), or any ITV channel, or 4Music, after appearing in full letterbox for a few seconds, the screen then zooms up to 14:9. The only ways to override it are either to start recording, or put the subtitles on, which cause it to revert to 16:9. All other Freeview widescreen channels remain in full 16:9 letterbox at all times.

The previous DVD recorder I had, which was an equivalent model (sorry, I can't remember the model numbers), ignored the 14:9 signal and always displayed in full 16:9. Anyway, it's not something I'm all that bothered about although it does mean that the DOGS on BBC Three and BBC Four are partly cut off the screen which looks more annoying than the DOGs being there in full!
In that case, I am puzzled by the behaviour of your machine.

As you say it reverts back to a proper widescreen picture after hitting the record button etc, to my mind, this seems to rule out any process the TV, itself, is performing, such as any auto aspect ratio switching. I take it you have the latest firmware installed, and if not, definitely something I'd advise installing. If you have the latest firmwire installed, then I would guess it is a fault with the unit.

I wonder if Gavtech has seen your posts yet. He may well be able to help you more than I. Do you have the Panasonic DVD recorder model number at all?

(BTW, I know what you mean about half cut off DOGs. I hate DOGs but, perversely, they annoy me even more when they are half cut off!)
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:45
Robert Williams
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In that case, I am puzzled by the behaviour of your machine.

As you say it reverts back to a proper widescreen picture after hitting the record button etc, to my mind, this seems to rule out any process the TV, itself, is performing, such as any auto aspect ratio switching. I take it you have the latest firmware installed, and if not, definitely something I'd advise installing. If you have the latest firmwire installed, then I would guess it is a fault with the unit.

I wonder if Gavtech has seen your posts yet. He may well be able to help you more than I. Do you have the Panasonic DVD recorder model number at all?

(BTW, I know what you mean about half cut off DOGs. I hate DOGs but, perversely, they annoy me even more when they are half cut off!)
The model number is DMR-EZ49V, and the firmware will be whatever it came with when I got it in 2010. I assume it must be responding to a signal that the BBC and ITV are sending, since it only affects their channels. As I say, it doesn't really bother me, I've become used to it over the past 2.5 years, and when something is basically in good working order I am rather reluctant to start messing about with it!
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:53
epm-84
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The business woman Steph McGovern (not sure of spelling) has done a video to show what the Breakfast studio looks like, and it is actually quite big, especially the area she sits in....
It's actually quite a distance from the screen she sits in front of to the sofa. It's more obvious when they do North West Tonight though.

The new studio didn't need to be as big as the old one because they don't need to allow room for a weather presenter any more.
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:54
D.Page
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The model number is DMR-EZ49V, and the firmware will be whatever it came with when I got it in 2010. I assume it must be responding to a signal that the BBC and ITV are sending, since it only affects their channels. As I say, it doesn't really bother me, I've become used to it over the past 2.5 years, and when something is basically in good working order I am rather reluctant to start messing about with it!
Arrrh, one of their DVD/VHS combi machines. My brother has this unit. Next time I speak with him I will ask him if he has noticed anything like this with his one.

Yes, if it doesn't really bother you, it is an understandable point of view to just leave it alone. I don't know whether this has always been occurring since you first got the unit, but I'd be inclined to reset it to its 'shipping condition' etc (see manual, page 83, for a couple of ways to reset the unit). It only takes a moment to carry these things out, so it's certainly worth a go.

I, personally, don't think it is being caused by anything in the transmissions. 16:9 broadcasts will have the Widescreen Switching Signal to tell a widescreen TV to stretch out the picture, but pretty much all channels in the UK broadcast this same signal when transmitting 16:9 widescreen content.
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:57
epm-84
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I think the placement of the weather forecast's 'time indication', during BBC Breakfast, should be relocated to the top-right of screen. It looks very odd with it placed so close above the main 'time indication'. I don't think its exact placement was given enough thought, considering where the main 'time indication' has been placed. Maybe it's just me, though.
I think someone at the BBC must have seen that ITV have moved things from the top of the screen to the bottom when they do weather forecasts so thought it would be fashionable to do the same.
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Old 21-03-2013, 17:29
Dan's Dad
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Its a way to make people buy new Television Sets. They did the same with the introduction of colour TV in the 1970's using titling that could not be easily read on Black & White TV's.
Simply untrue - high quality B&W picture monitoring existed side by side with colour monitors, in the 70s and later, to ensure .....

coloured captions were compatible with B&W receivers
and
colour saturation levels didn't give rise to distracting levels of 'herring-boning' on B&W receivers.
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Old 21-03-2013, 17:32
epm-84
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You could buy a new TV/radio combi that was a black and white TV around 10 years ago, which were popular with the student market. It's only really when it was decided that analogue would be turned off that new black and white TVs were no longer produced.
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Old 21-03-2013, 18:03
tothegrand
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You cannot read it properly any more as it is outside the 4:3 protected area on breakfast.

This only needs to be moved about an inch to the left. Not everyone has a widescreen TV
Put your TV on letterbox mode.

Or move with the times.
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Old 21-03-2013, 21:28
DVDfever
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I do, as it happens, but I know some partially sighted people prefer centre cut out.

Peace.
So for the sake of a handful of people who've still got a 4:3 TV, technology cannot progress?
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Old 21-03-2013, 21:35
lotrjw
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Put your TV on letterbox mode.

Or move with the times.
I agree, I think there should be firmware updates that remove the centre cut out option on everyone's boxes, unless its just not possible but that would probably only be for a few old freeview boxes that cant be updated. Then the broadcasters can just put their graphics in 16:9 safe area. Oh and I checked the BBC News graphics centre cut out on an old 4:3 tv this week and they are 4:3 but its not in 4:3 safe area so the overscan just cuts it off by a little bit and the clock, and ticker on news channel, are at very bottom of the screen so its no longer in 4:3 vertical safe area! Its designed for a flat screen for sure! I think they are expecting everyone not to be using CRTs now!
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Old 21-03-2013, 22:04
Sue_Aitch
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I think there should be firmware updates that remove the centre cut out option on everyone's boxes.


Why would you wish to restrict the choices of those of us who have 4:3 sets for the sake of some onscreen graphics on the BBC News Channel? DSO was never about making Widescreen compulsory.

Watched Porridge on BBC Four this evening on my 4:3 TV and it filled the screen as made in the seventies and broadcast in its correct aspect ratio.

To repeat myself, content is key, format not so much.
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Old 21-03-2013, 22:47
lotrjw
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Why would you wish to restrict the choices of those of us who have 4:3 sets for the sake of some onscreen graphics on the BBC News Channel? DSO was never about making Widescreen compulsory.

Watched Porridge on BBC Four this evening on my 4:3 TV and it filled the screen as made in the seventies and broadcast in its correct aspect ratio.

To repeat myself, content is key, format not so much.
old programs should fit your 4:3 screen if they are made in 4:3 if they are made in 16:9 they should be in 16:9 letterbox or 14:9 letterbox like it used to be on analogue before the switchover. and also I think 4:3 should be shown 4:3 on a 16:9 tv.
Except for the compromise 14:9, I do believe that all content should be shown in the original format regardless of where it comes from whether it be news or cinemascope 2.35/2.4:1 movies.
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Old 21-03-2013, 23:34
DVDfever
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Why would you wish to restrict the choices of those of us who have 4:3 sets for the sake of some onscreen graphics on the BBC News Channel? DSO was never about making Widescreen compulsory.

Watched Porridge on BBC Four this evening on my 4:3 TV and it filled the screen as made in the seventies and broadcast in its correct aspect ratio.

To repeat myself, content is key, format not so much.
Porridge would be in 4:3 regardless of the option of a '4:3 centre cut-out' option. There is no parallel between the two.
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