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LBC 97.3 Politics Thread
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PrimarchofMars
01-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“That was Michael Foot, wasn't it ?”

Yeah, sorry. I'm failing at multi-tasking again and am all over the place. Argument still applies though.
FrankBT
01-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“This morning NF took a call from a lady who was going to be voting in tomorrow's local elections. She said she hadn't decided who to vote for but the Conservative candidate had knocked on her door. She was being swayed towards him because "he had a nice smile".

Regardless of which party he represents, is this going to be the way people decide who to vote for?”

What do you think has been happening since the days of Tory Blair?. "Ooh! He looks nice. He' sounds sincere He looks young . I fink I'll vote for him". Just like Boris. Most of the people I've come across voted for him because he seems more fun than Ken. He could have been Berlusconi for all it mattered.

The daft electorate deserve the cr*p politicians they get.
Kiko H Fan
01-05-2013
Originally Posted by PrimarchofMars:
“Local vs government politics is hard to separate though, surely? My area has seen significant rises in council tax, even for the unemployed. It's a local issue as not everywhere has but this is due, in part, to changes in national welfare policy and levels of funding.

Now Eric Pickles wants to say that this is a local government issue and their fault, but come local and national election, very few voters here will accept that view.”

My reasoning stemmed from something a few years ago.
Labour were in Government and local elections came around. Blair wasn't popular and many voters were on record (tv, papers and the like) saying they would vote against labour as they "wanted to give Blair a bloody nose".

This got me thinking. What if your local council was Labour run and doing ok to good? Mr and Mrs voter don't consider that; all they want to do is "give Blair a bloody nose". So, they vote otherwise. Labour lose this council; Mr and Mrs voter feel smug.

After a while, they notice their local library is closing a few days a week. Their refuse isn't picked up because the new private firm are fussier on the way the bags are filled. That community bus for the elderly is withdrawn, etc etc etc.
It's the new council, making cuts, or "efficiencies" as they sell it to you.

Still, never mind, as they've booted Labour out and that means Blair's had "a bloody nose".
Except he hasn't. Blair isn't your local councillor. However, your services have deteriorated, unlike your council tax bill.

I may be rather wrong in this way of thinking, but that's what I do now in local elections. My parents would never vote Conservative in a general election, but they vote for their Conservative local councillor as they say "he's the only one who gets things done".
PrimarchofMars
01-05-2013
Originally Posted by Kiko H Fan:
“My reasoning stemmed from something a few years ago.
Labour were in Government and local elections came around. Blair wasn't popular and many voters were on record (tv, papers and the like) saying they would vote against labour as they "wanted to give Blair a bloody nose".

This got me thinking. What if your local council was Labour run and doing ok to good? Mr and Mrs voter don't consider that; all they want to do is "give Blair a bloody nose". So, they vote otherwise. Labour lose this council; Mr and Mrs voter feel smug.

After a while, they notice their local library is closing a few days a week. Their refuse isn't picked up because the new private firm are fussier on the way the bags are filled. That community bus for the elderly is withdrawn, etc etc etc.
It's the new council, making cuts, or "efficiencies" as they sell it to you.

Still, never mind, as they've booted Labour out and that means Blair's had "a bloody nose".
Except he hasn't. Blair isn't your local councillor. However, your services have deteriorated, unlike your council tax bill.

I may be rather wrong in this way of thinking, but that's what I do now in local elections. My parents would never vote Conservative in a general election, but they vote for their Conservative local councillor as they say "he's the only one who gets things done".”

I think much of this depends on, ironically given the theme of 'local', where you live. Many places never, ever see a change in rosette in their local government, for good or bad. What you describe are places with significant amounts of floating voters with no allegiance to a particular party (which isn't a bad thing in itself) and this is how all marginal seats work. However, as national elections allegedly fight over a centre-ground in political themes, in reality it's about the floating voters who are neither left or right (or authoritarian/liberal) but who sit on political fence until pushed or coaxed by one party's policies or another.

Again, not necessarily a bad thing but everyone else now appears to suffer it, the core aspect of all Big 3 parties now seem to get shafted: Labour core lost to Tory-lite New Labour, Tory core to the 'heir to Blair' and the LibDem core to the Orange Tories.

Also, you're not wrong for having an opinion/stance/take on politics. Political apathy dooms us all.
clitheroe1
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by FrankBT:
“What do you think has been happening since the days of Tory Blair?. "Ooh! He looks nice. He' sounds sincere He looks young . I fink I'll vote for him". Just like Boris. Most of the people I've come across voted for him because he seems more fun than Ken. He could have been Berlusconi for all it mattered.

The daft electorate deserve the cr*p politicians they get.”

You comment reminds me of a story when Roy Jenkins finished his term as President of the European Commission and fought the Warrington by-election for the newly formed SDP. A voter was interviewed by the Press and was asked who he would be voting for and why and he replied be supporting Roy Jenkins because he was against Britain's membership of the EEC. The puzzled interviewer responded "but Roy Jenkins is pro-EEC, he was even President of the organisation" and the voter replied "I know that but he jacked it in, didn't he".
HappyTree
02-05-2013
Looking around at some of my fellow humans, I am sometimes reminded of this quotation:

Originally Posted by Isaac Asimov:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

makeba72
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by PrimarchofMars:
“ Political apathy dooms us all.”

I won't get the quote quite right, but I recall Bernard Weatherill making a speech, after he left the post of Speaker. He said something along the lines of...

The greatest threat to politics today is apathy, and worse than that, apathy fuelled by cynicism.

Bang on.
chinchin
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“That was Michael Foot, wasn't it ?”

It was a smart jacket not a donkey jacket. Media smears!
MartinRosen
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by chinchin:
“It was a smart jacket not a donkey jacket. Media smears! ”

It obviously looked like a donkey jacket !
makeba72
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“It obviously looked like a donkey jacket !”

In the same way that paediatrician looks like paedophile?

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a joke or being serious Martin, but I am astounded at the constant apparent preference that many show to prefer a lie over a truth. Whether it's the MMR or Foot's clothing, why do some people still stick their fingers in their ears? The wilful ignorance of some people never ceases to astround me.

Moreover, sections of the media are shown to be complicit with this kind of nonsense, and I think that's genuinely dangerous at times, and always unethical and unpleasant.
chinchin
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“It obviously looked like a donkey jacket !”

I have seen the film footage and heard what Michael Foot and others have said and I disagree. Perhaps you need your eyes testing? It was a smart type of duffel coat. The Queen Mum complimented him on it.

Of course, Boris was an utter disgrace in China showing the whole country up and I have seen that also.
MartinRosen
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by makeba72:
“I'm not sure if you're trying to make a joke or being serious Martin, but I am astounded at the constant apparent preference that many show to prefer a lie over a truth. Whether it's the MMR or Foot's clothing, why do some people still stick their fingers in their ears? The wilful ignorance of some people never ceases to astround me.”

It was not a joke. I was just remembering what I recall being reported at the time. I was not putting my fingers in my ears.

Originally Posted by chinchin:
“I have seen the film footage and heard what Michael Foot and others have said and I disagree. Perhaps you need your eyes testing?”

Aye! As I explained above, I was using my recalled memory, and didn't look for any pictures. Having just googled it, I see that the media did correct it.
makeba72
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“It was not a joke. I was just remembering what I recall being reported at the time. I was not putting my fingers in my ears.

Aye! As I explained above, I was using my recalled memory, and didn't look for any pictures. Having just googled it, I see that the media did correct it.”

But you weren't remembering what was reported - you were making as assumption that it must have looked like a donkey jacket, even though Chin had just said something different.

As for the media correcting themselves... really? So why is this still believed by many people today?

Edit - the point I'm making is that sections of the media consistently get away with blatant lies and smears. And yet, even when it's shown to be the case, people will still close their minds to it, or brush it off as unimportant. An interesting example is the outrage of people over those who were 'disrespectful' when Thatcher died, but who couldn't have cared less about what was said when Foot died, etc.

It's a wilful blindness and hypocrisy, isn't it?
MartinRosen
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by makeba72:
“But you weren't remembering what was reported - you were making as assumption that it must have looked like a donkey jacket, even though Chin had just said something different.”

As I said (before Chin's comment) I thought I had remembered it was a donkey jacket. I now know differently.

Quote:
“As for the media correcting themselves... really? So why is this still believed by many people today?”

I don't know, but maybe the correction wasn't so widely promulgated - why I don't know. It may have been a conspiracy, but I don't know.
makeba72
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“As I said (before Chin's comment) I thought I had remembered it was a donkey jacket. I now know differently.

I don't know, but maybe the correction wasn't so widely promulgated - why I don't know. It may have been a conspiracy, but I don't know.”

With all respect Martin, that's not what you said at all.

Thanks for the link, but as you can see, it's a tiny piece in a broadsheet from 2010. I think we can see the relative irrelevance of that.

I also note you've chosen not to comment on the hypocrisy of people who cherry-pick what they criticise.
Charlie Drake
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by makeba72:
“With all respect Martin, that's not what you said at all.

Thanks for the link, but as you can see, it's a tiny piece in a broadsheet from 2010. I think we can see the relative irrelevance of that.

I also note you've chosen not to comment on the hypocrisy of people who cherry-pick what they criticise.”

I hope his brother is still alive, because we already have one Foot in the grave

I liked him a lot - one of the last of the true conviction politicians.

I drove past him one day, somewhere around Kings Cross. I can confirm he was wearing a duffel coat.
clitheroe1
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by Charlie Drake:
“I hope his brother is still alive, because we already have one Foot in the grave

I liked him a lot - one of the last of the true conviction politicians.

I drove past him one day, somewhere around Kings Cross. I can confirm he was wearing a duffel coat.”

When Michael Foot was leader of the Opposition he still travelled on London buses and I remember him getting on a bus I was on. He was very polite and even though he was old and had a disability, he stood for the journey and I was appalled that no one offerred him a seat. Hard to imagine many of our current party leaders travelling by bus these days, (not including staged photo opportunities) except for maybe Natalie Bennett.
MartinRosen
02-05-2013
This is what I wrote in response to PoM's wrong suggestion that it was Harold Wilson

Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“That was Michael Foot, wasn't it ?”

Chin corrected me that it was not a donkey jacket.

Originally Posted by chinchin:
“It was a smart jacket not a donkey jacket. Media smears! ”

You replied

Originally Posted by makeba72:
“But you weren't remembering what was reported - you were making as assumption that it must have looked like a donkey jacket, even though Chin had just said something different.”

I said

Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“As I said (before Chin's comment) I thought I had remembered it was a donkey jacket. I now know differently.”

Originally Posted by makeba72:
“With all respect Martin, that's not what you said at all.”

I cannot find anything different. The phrase that PoM put in his original post about the donkey jacket "which never was", I think (and obviously I have no evidence) was edited in after his original post, otherwise Chin would not have had to confirm it wasn't a donkey jacket.

Originally Posted by makeba:
“ Thanks for the link, but as you can see, it's a tiny piece in a broadsheet from 2010. I think we can see the relative irrelevance of that.”

I don't know, but maybe other newspapers ran the correction nearer the time in a more prominent position.

Originally Posted by makeba:
“I also note you've chosen not to comment on the hypocrisy of people who cherry-pick what they criticise.”

I cannot find where you suggest that people are cherry-picking what they criticise.

Originally Posted by makeba72:
“So why is this still believed by many people today?”

I don't know - maybe I am the only one that the correction didn't filter through to

Originally Posted by makeba72:
“ Edit - the point I'm making is that sections of the media consistently get away with blatant lies and smears. And yet, even when it's shown to be the case, people will still close their minds to it, or brush it off as unimportant. An interesting example is the outrage of people over those who were 'disrespectful' when Thatcher died, but who couldn't have cared less about what was said when Foot died, etc.”

I cannot speak for other people, but as I said I had not heard the correction so it was not brushed off in my case.

I don't recall anybody comparing Mrs Thatcher to Michael Foot. I am not sure what the comparison would be as MF was never Prime Minister.


(phew! Now to check all my brackets are correct and this makes some sort of sense - from my point of view !!)
makeba72
02-05-2013
Originally Posted by MartinRosen:
“I don't know, but maybe other newspapers ran the correction nearer the time in a more prominent position.

I cannot find where you suggest that people are cherry-picking what they criticise.

I don't know - maybe I am the only one that the correction didn't filter through to

I cannot speak for other people, but as I said I had not heard the correction so it was not brushed off in my case.

I don't recall anybody comparing Mrs Thatcher to Michael Foot. I am not sure what the comparison would be as MF was never Prime Minister.”

Wow - this is getting very complicated!

Firstly, lots of what I have said have been general comments. Of course, as our colleague g-s is so keen on saying, if you choose to think that you are part of the 'some people' that I mention, that is a matter entirely for you.

Sorry, I digress!

My original comment was when you asserted that it 'must have looked like a donkey jacket', not aimed at what came before it. I've since commented on how the media managed to propogate lies and stories. If someone like yourself, Martin, who engages with the news didn't know about the Foot-jacket-lie, then it says an awful lot about how they get away with it. You never heard or saw a correction, because there wasn't one of any note! That's the point.

I guess I also wanted to point out that I think you're wrong to assume that it must have looked like a donkey-jacket and that the media made an honest mistake. Sections of the media are vile to people they take against and behave appallingly at times. It's the kind of dreadful hypocrisy that Ferrari shows so often on his show (see this morning and his setting up of the McCann phone-in).

Your last para misunderstands what I said about Foot and Mrs T. I didn't say people were comparing them. I said that some of the people who criticised those who rejoiced in Thatcher's death have been shown to have been disrespectful to Foot when he died. I believe Chin showed us another example when an ex Union man died, too.
Virgin Queen
03-05-2013
Originally Posted by chinchin:
“It was a smart jacket not a donkey jacket. Media smears! ”

Not all that smart, Chin.

http://dermotrathbone.wordpress.com/...enneth-morgan/
roddydogs
03-05-2013
Eer we go again, James O.B trying to rubbish UKIP as if he hadn't done this to death already.
makeba72
03-05-2013
Originally Posted by roddydogs:
“Eer we go again, James O.B trying to rubbish UKIP as if he hadn't done this to death already.”

It's been said before, but don't you think the callers do the rubbishing job all by themselves? The UKIP-supporting callers are generally uniformed about what their party stands for when it comes to specifics.
Kiko H Fan
03-05-2013
Originally Posted by makeba72:
“It's been said before, but don't you think the callers do the rubbishing job all by themselves? The UKIP-supporting callers are generally uniformed about what their party stands for when it comes to specifics.”

BBC Radio Wales have just done a UKIP phone in, with the very same UKIP supporting callers as you mention.

They are completely clueless. Wales has around £80 million of EU funded projects at the moment. None of the UKIP supporters could say what would happen to those if we pulled out of the EU. All they could bleat on about was the incredibly tiresome "EU", "human rights" and "immigrants".
Venetian
03-05-2013
Originally Posted by Virgin Queen:
“Not all that smart, Chin.

http://dermotrathbone.wordpress.com/...enneth-morgan/”

It actually doesn't look that dissimilar to Mrs Thatcher's, 'cept she's buttoned hers up
makeba72
03-05-2013
Originally Posted by Kiko H Fan:
“BBC Radio Wales have just done a UKIP phone in, with the very same UKIP supporting callers as you mention.

They are completely clueless. Wales has around £80 million of EU funded projects at the moment. None of the UKIP supporters could say what would happen to those if we pulled out of the EU. All they could bleat on about was the incredibly tiresome "EU", "human rights" and "immigrants".”

JOB's just taken a call from a man who 'refused to engage with {his} childishness'. All JOB wanted was for him to outline UKIP's banking policy that the caller said he supported. I know who I think was being childish...!
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