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Old 07-05-2013, 13:13
Nessun Dorma
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I might be tempted by Labour again but ONLY if they promised to stop outsourcing NHS jobs to companies like OCS,Carillion,Serco and initial Healthcare (part of rentokil) Labour under Tony Blair did plenty of this whilst in power can we trust them now.
But your only alternative appears to be a political party whose main goal is to do more of it.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:21
Nessun Dorma
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Again, not true. UKIP have a dozen MEPs. That counts as national representation. The Greens have never complained about not being on my show enough, We did an hour long Green leadership hustings and since then Natatlie Bennett has been on my show three times for an hour taking questions. Nigel Farage, to the best of my memory, has never done that on my show.
The Greens complaints have never been mentioned, it is entirely up to them how they conduct their own publicity. The point was, your show gives more time to UKIP and than any other non-represented party. Okay, they may have a few MEPs, but they have no national representation in the UK parliament, whereas the Green Party does, so they deserve to have the exposure.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:22
Nessun Dorma
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We are both right. I am right on County Councillors. You are right on District Councillors.
I don't recall Clitheroe mentioning County or District councils.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:31
clitheroe1
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We are both right. I am right on County Councillors. You are right on District Councillors.
So I still think the the point I was making is valid. The coverage of UKIP on LBC has been disproportionately large and favourable when compared with their support in the country and with the coverage that The Green Party receive. I'm not talking about Iain Dale's show specifically but across all LBC's shows.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:34
clitheroe1
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I don't recall Clitheroe mentioning County or District councils.
I think it's called moving the goalposts rather than admitting he was wrong.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:54
Nessun Dorma
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I think it's called moving the goalposts rather than admitting he was wrong.
Indeed, I have noticed a similar technique on his show. He spouts some statistic or "fact" and when the correction is pointed out to him, he backtracks and says "that is not what I meant and it is your own fault fault for inferring that it was."
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Old 07-05-2013, 14:10
guiser
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I don't recall Clitheroe mentioning County or District councils.
Even if you take the District Councils out of the equation, the Greens have in excess of 80 seats on County, City and Borough Councils.

I'm not getting into the argument about whether or not the Greens get proportionate coverage.

I simply want to demonstrate that this statement is completely wrong -
Iain Dale - Clitheroe, I am afraid you are totally wrong. The Greens have 22 councillors in England
The fact that it was made by a person who has the ear of London for 20 hours a week is quite frightening.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:18
heiker
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I am not sure about this, have you any examples?
"The Labour Government spent nearly 10 years blaming the previous lot"

Surely you must have watched Gordon Brown's stabbing finger and barbed comments about the previous Tory Administration aimed in the direction of David Cameron at PMQs every week for five years.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:29
heiker
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Clitheroe, I am afraid you are totally wrong. The Greens have 22 councillors in England and UKIP have 147. I think we give the Greens a lot of coverage. Ask Natalie Bennett or Jenny Jones whether they are unhappy at what coverage we given them. I'd say LBC gives the far more coverage than any media outlet. In fact I get complaints from other parties for the amount of times I have a Green Party representative on my programme.
Natalie Bennett has made appearances on BBC's Question Time and The Daily Politics.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:45
HappyTree
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Oh dear....Ian Dale caught out on his own propagandising.
I don't think it was deliberate propagandising, he just didn't check the figures properly, or perhaps misunderstood the point he was replying to.
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Old 07-05-2013, 21:02
clitheroe1
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I don't think it was deliberate propagandising, he just didn't check the figures properly, or perhaps misunderstood the point he was replying to.
I don't think he misunderstood my point. I said the Greens have more councillors than UKIP and he accused me of being "totally wrong" when I was correct. He still claims his figures are "right" so we have to draw our own conclusions whether he checked his figures properly.

I've always been a big fan of Iain Dale's and I have consistently said this on these forums but he's gone down a bit in my estimation in how he chose to strongly challenge my comments using inaccurate figures and then still maintained he was correct after being called out. If he misunderstood my point he could have said so but he chose to argue that he was correct all along.
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Old 07-05-2013, 22:10
Richard1960
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But your only alternative appears to be a political party whose main goal is to do more of it.
I will look at the as yet unpublished UKIP manifesto for the 2015 election then,i could vote Green if there is a candidate in my area i am fed up with career politicans who privatise on the quite.

If UKIP threaten more outsourcing of ancilliary jobs in the NHS i will think very carefully then.
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Old 07-05-2013, 22:15
thewilson
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I don't think he misunderstood my point. I said the Greens have more councillors than UKIP and he accused me of being "totally wrong" when I was correct. He still claims his figures are "right" so we have to draw our own conclusions whether he checked his figures properly.

I've always been a big fan of Iain Dale's and I have consistently said this on these forums but he's gone down a bit in my estimation in how he chose to strongly challenge my comments using inaccurate figures and then still maintained he was correct after being called out. If he misunderstood my point he could have said so but he chose to argue that he was correct all along.
Has he flounced off the forum again in a fit of pique? This presenter is seemingly unable to cope with being challenged or criticised here. Reminds me of Gaunt's attitude to those who disagree with him.
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Old 07-05-2013, 23:05
HappyTree
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he chose to argue that he was correct all along.
That's what the Internet is for!

On a more serious note, LBC does seem to have become the Fox News of the airwaves. The information is not important, just pleasing the views of the target people listening and generating the ad revenue.

I did like a quick comment JOB made this morning. When talking about how some people complain that some NHS users bring their illnesses upon themselves and so the money shouldn't be wasted on them, he just said "Yeah, wait till it happens to them." That is sadly the point: some people form their views without being able to place themselves in other people's shoes, if only for the purposes of understanding a point. Yet when they are facing a problem themselves they miraculously understand the need for help. "End of your nose" syndrome.
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Old 08-05-2013, 00:14
iaindale
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Has he flounced off the forum again in a fit of pique? This presenter is seemingly unable to cope with being challenged or criticised here. Reminds me of Gaunt's attitude to those who disagree with him.
Incredible. And you wonder why no other presenter contributes to these forums.

I had, wrongly, as it turned out, assumed we were talking about county council elections, as that is what we have just been through. Clitheroe, it turns out, was referring to ALL councillors. Which is why I followed up by saying Clitheroe and I were both right in what we were saying.

I responded here to defend LBC's coverage of the Green Party, which I think is fair. Yes, UKIP are getting a lot of coverage at the moment, which is understandable bearing in mind their result on Thursday. They made gains of 139. The Greens made a net gain of 5, bringing their total up to 22.

Back in 1989 they scored 15% in the European elections and got commensurately high coverage as a result. I doubt they will repeat that next year, but you never know. I certainly think they will improve on their 2009 result, and my coverage of them will reflect that.
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Old 08-05-2013, 00:59
HappyTree
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edit: Oh never mind.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:52
guiser
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Incredible. And you wonder why no other presenter contributes to these forums.

I had, wrongly, as it turned out, assumed we were talking about county council elections, as that is what we have just been through. Clitheroe, it turns out, was referring to ALL councillors. Which is why I followed up by saying Clitheroe and I were both right in what we were saying.

I responded here to defend LBC's coverage of the Green Party, which I think is fair. Yes, UKIP are getting a lot of coverage at the moment, which is understandable bearing in mind their result on Thursday. They made gains of 139. The Greens made a net gain of 5, bringing their total up to 22.

Back in 1989 they scored 15% in the European elections and got commensurately high coverage as a result. I doubt they will repeat that next year, but you never know. I certainly think they will improve on their 2009 result, and my coverage of them will reflect that.

Clitheroe's original statement was perfectly clear -

The Greens have more elected councillors than UKIP
.


Still, great respect to you for coming back and responding.

It takes a big man to apologise................... oh wait...........

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:21
Talma
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I can only listen to LBC out of my working hours but I do seem to hear Green people on the air a fair amount, especially Jenny Jones, and while the talk lately has been of UKIP which is understandable given the local elections, apart from Nigel Farage I don't think I've heard any others. I know who I find more interesting and relevant, and it's not the Greens. Jenny Jones always gives me impression that she's living in a parallel world, but then I've never quite understood what the Greens think is actually possible to achieve, nationally or locally.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:50
makeba72
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I think there is always a question about how much coverage UKIP deserve because of their success, and how much of UKIP's success is because of the coverage... I don't suppose there's an answer to that, but we all know that the media can often shape the national debate.

My own view on the debate re UKIP vs Green is that it's not so much about the amount of coverage as the style of the coverage. I made a comment earlier about how David Mellor is dismissive of Greens (he gets really, really uppity with Jenny Jones whenever she's on), but is exceptionally chummy with Nigel Farage. From what I have heard, I regret that this is an attitude that I have heard across much of LBC.

Take for example the coverage in general of the recent upsurge in right-wing politics via UKIP and how it's been built into a genuine and reasonable threat to the political landscape. Compare that with the coverage in the rise of left-wing politics via Occupy, The Greens, etc and see how it's ridiculed, derided, criticised, patronised, sneered at and put down at every opportunity.

That's my problem with LBC and the media. Just listen to any Nick Ferrari, Ian Collins or James Max show for an example.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:04
Richard1960
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I think there is always a question about how much coverage UKIP deserve because of their success, and how much of UKIP's success is because of the coverage... I don't suppose there's an answer to that, but we all know that the media can often shape the national debate.

My own view on the debate re UKIP vs Green is that it's not so much about the amount of coverage as the style of the coverage. I made a comment earlier about how David Mellor is dismissive of Greens (he gets really, really uppity with Jenny Jones whenever she's on), but is exceptionally chummy with Nigel Farage. From what I have heard, I regret that this is an attitude that I have heard across much of LBC.

Take for example the coverage in general of the recent upsurge in right-wing politics via UKIP and how it's been built into a genuine and reasonable threat to the political landscape. Compare that with the coverage in the rise of left-wing politics via Occupy, The Greens, etc and see how it's ridiculed, derided, criticised, patronised, put down at every opportunity.

That's my problem with LBC and the media. Just listen to any Nick Ferrari, Ian Collins or James Max show for an example.


Tahts because they are all to the right of Ghegis Khan makeba,Nick Ferrai is Rupert Murdochs man on the radio,Ian Collins is a maggie fan supreme,and James Max is the bankers friend no matter what they have done.

None of whom have any sympathy for the left surprised at James Max though as the banks recieved a socialist style bail out with public money.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:57
Nessun Dorma
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Incredible. And you wonder why no other presenter contributes to these forums.

I had, wrongly, as it turned out, assumed we were talking about county council elections, as that is what we have just been through. Clitheroe, it turns out, was referring to ALL councillors. Which is why I followed up by saying Clitheroe and I were both right in what we were saying.

I responded here to defend LBC's coverage of the Green Party, which I think is fair. Yes, UKIP are getting a lot of coverage at the moment, which is understandable bearing in mind their result on Thursday. They made gains of 139. The Greens made a net gain of 5, bringing their total up to 22.

Back in 1989 they scored 15% in the European elections and got commensurately high coverage as a result. I doubt they will repeat that next year, but you never know. I certainly think they will improve on their 2009 result, and my coverage of them will reflect that.
The Green's coverage really is a distraction, it was only mentioned as an example, perhaps not the best one to have put forward. But, the point is that UKIP have had a disproportionate amount of positive exposure on LBC and in particular, your programme, over the last year or two. When Farage is on, he gets more positive approaches from you and other presenters and doesn't face the sort of robust scrutiny that accompanies other political figures. For example, Farage has this mantra that the European Union costs us fifty-three million pounds a day, he and his cohorts have mentioned this on your show several times. Yet you do not challenge him on what the actual net figure is, after taking into account rebates and subsidies. In 2011, the net EU cost, to every citizen in the UK, was about sixty-five pounds, that's eighteen pence a day. Why is he never challenged on these points?

Why is he never challenged about their attitude to gay marriage, benefit claimants ("a parasitic underclass of scroungers" comes to mind), their proposed forty per cent increase in defence spending, whilst demanding less intervention in other countries' conflicts, gay adoption (apparently akin to child abuse), women in the workplace (maternity leave and sex discrimination) and their approach to employment rights (maternity leave and National Minimum Wage) ?

Then there is Farage's business dealings (the huge tax bill his son's business ducked out of, whilst Farage was company secretary), his conspicuous absence from the fisheries committee (he takes his salary but does nothing for it, a bit ironic given his insistence that the EU wastes taxpayers' money) and where are his expenses details that he has promised to publish?

Surely, as you have taken pains to express that they are growing in popularity, you should be scrutinising them far more closely than you seem to have done in the past.

But then, what response could we expect? Would it be that Farage just spins a web of nonsense and you just nod and agree, or will you be prepared to challenge him directly and not just accept his explanations as gospel.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:11
makeba72
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[/b]

Tahts because they are all to the right of Ghegis Khan makeba,Nick Ferrai is Rupert Murdochs man on the radio,Ian Collins is a maggie fan supreme,and James Max is the bankers friend no matter what they have done.

None of whom have any sympathy for the left surprised at James Max though as the banks recieved a socialist style bail out with public money.
Indeed. Ferrari's coverage of the phone-hacking would have been laughable were it not disgusting. They felt the need to balance out Ken Livingstone on his show, but apparently Mr Ferrari can ooze self-interest all he pleases.

Ian Collins and James Max simply belittle anyone who disagrees with them, which is name-calling in place of a proper answer.

The fact is, I don't listen to LBC nearly as much as I used to. I try, but I find myself turning off more and more at this immature, repetitive, radio. It's good to be challenged, but it's not fun or enjoyable to tune in and find your views being belittled. I only regret that there isn't an alternative, or I would have tuned in elsewhere already.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:19
PrimarchofMars
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Because i have been told in this thread Labour are against privatisation in the NHS utter Bo--ocks.

If UKIP do the same at least they are honest about it unlike Labour!
You can't be that against the principle of NHS privatisation if all it comes down to is honesty. The Tories and the LibDems were upfront about it if you understand the nature of 'competition' within the NHS. [read the Orange Book] So why UKIP rather than Tory or LibDem?
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:42
PrimarchofMars
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Clitheroe, I am afraid you are totally wrong. The Greens have 22 councillors in England and UKIP have 147.
UKIP have 147 councillors now. As of since the last elections, last week. How does that explain the extent of their almost wholly positive* coverage on LBC before these elections?


*weirdly, some are complaining because O'Brien and Gilligan had TWO critical segments following the elections. Compare that to coverage of New Labour over the years.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:47
PrimarchofMars
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The Green's coverage really is a distraction, it was only mentioned as an example, perhaps not the best one to have put forward. But, the point is that UKIP have had a disproportionate amount of positive exposure on LBC and in particular, your programme, over the last year or two. When Farage is on, he gets more positive approaches from you and other presenters and doesn't face the sort of robust scrutiny that accompanies other political figures. For example, Farage has this mantra that the European Union costs us fifty-three million pounds a day, he and his cohorts have mentioned this on your show several times. Yet you do not challenge him on what the actual net figure is, after taking into account rebates and subsidies. In 2011, the net EU cost, to every citizen in the UK, was about sixty-five pounds, that's eighteen pence a day. Why is he never challenged on these points?

Why is he never challenged about their attitude to gay marriage, benefit claimants ("a parasitic underclass of scroungers" comes to mind), their proposed forty per cent increase in defence spending, whilst demanding less intervention in other countries' conflicts, gay adoption (apparently akin to child abuse), women in the workplace (maternity leave and sex discrimination) and their approach to employment rights (maternity leave and National Minimum Wage) ?

Then there is Farage's business dealings (the huge tax bill his son's business ducked out of, whilst Farage was company secretary), his conspicuous absence from the fisheries committee (he takes his salary but does nothing for it, a bit ironic given his insistence that the EU wastes taxpayers' money) and where are his expenses details that he has promised to publish?

Surely, as you have taken pains to express that they are growing in popularity, you should be scrutinising them far more closely than you seem to have done in the past.

But then, what response could we expect? Would it be that Farage just spins a web of nonsense and you just nod and agree, or will you be prepared to challenge him directly and not just accept his explanations as gospel.
Great post. I'm mentioned this before, but Boris and Nigel always seem to have a 'Top Gear' rapport with some LBC presenters. It's like a wealthier, more shire-orientated version of James Whale's 'white van man' matiness
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