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Old 08-04-2013, 13:57
makeba72
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How many ex-PM's have had a 'ceremonial funeral' (not a 'state funeral', I note)?

Is this normal?
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:03
Potkettle
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That's a fair point; we don't know for certain. I'd hedge a bet that if it was lurker, it was lurker that was sympathetic to the core of the longer, more frequent posters. The moderator intervention only came at specific times.
I can only speak for myself as a lurker. I have never alerted the Mods to anything I find off topic or anything else, thinking about it. I think that lurkers are not as passionate about this forum as the regulars and long termers who take it far more serious.
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:13
Lone Drinker
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Rejoice! Rejoice!
Are you 15 years old ?
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:18
chinchin
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Iain Dale (the Tory blogger) on why we should be able to criticise the negative things people did while they were alive (after their deaths):

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/0...aret-thatcher/
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:23
Nessun Dorma
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That has to be one the very rare times I agree with Dale.
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:23
Lone Drinker
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No one has said there should be no comment on her policies, it's the imbecilic reaction to her death that is objectionable.
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:23
PrimarchofMars
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Being bitter about anyone or anything only hurts yourself. All it does is to prolong your hatred and pain.
True to an extent, but it also stops you from forgetting what caused it in the first place. Thatcher may have long left the political arena, but her policies haven't. You don't move on when you're still in the middle of it.

Surely the way your life turns out is ultimately [b]your[b] own responsibility?
Not when so much is dictated by economic policies, education policies &c. You can only work with what you've been dealt. Many don't appreciate how few cards some have been dealt with or have had taken away. That's a fact, no matter what Ayn Rand &c might have said.

Dancing on the grave of an 87 year old woman is very sad.
Maybe so. However, schadenfreude isn't unique to this event and is expressed by many across all political spectrum. Do you really, honestly think that right wing press, commentators, posters, tweeters and the like will be especially gracious when Blair or Brown die?
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:25
chinchin
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That has to be one the very rare times I agree with Dale.
Me too. However much I disagree with his politics, I'm definitely warming to the man. And that is meant with real truth, not sarcasm.
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:41
PrimarchofMars
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Here's Iain Dale speaking about Jack Jones' death and how he thought he did enormous damage to the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fiLSu0Ciq4

Sorry chinchin, didn't see your post.

We must read the same blogs!
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Old 08-04-2013, 14:55
FrankBT
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Maybe so. However, schadenfreude isn't unique to this event and is expressed by many across all political spectrum. Do you really, honestly think that right wing press, commentators, posters, tweeters and the like will be especially gracious when Blair or Brown die?
As far as Tony Blair is concerned I would have thought the right wing media will be almost as praising. Blair was one of the biggest political deceivers in history, someone who used the Labour party purely to advance his own career by pretending to be a Socialist to begin with He is a classic example of a politician who thrived in the legacy of Thatcher. He would never have risen up the ranks so far had he joined the Tories and he knew it. In many ways it's a great pity he didn't.become a Tory MP. At least he'd have been out of harm's way.
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Old 08-04-2013, 15:06
PrimarchofMars
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As far as Tony Blair is concerned I would have thought the right wing media will be almost as praising. Blair was one of the biggest political deceivers in history, someone who used the Labour party purely to advance his own career by pretending to be a Socialist to begin with He is a classic example of a politician who thrived in the legacy of Thatcher. He would never have risen up the ranks so far off had he joined the Tories and he knew it. In many ways it's a great pity he didn't.become a Tory MP. At least he'd have been out of harm's way.
I agree completely. However, I think many on the right conveniently forget how he dragged the party to the right when they're shouting about 'war crimes', 'Iraq', 'socialist paradise' and 'broken Britain' &c. It will be the same after his death: no clamouring for state funeral, no 'great statesman' (despite Cameron doing everything he can to ape him), just how he turned a Tory paradise into a Soviet-style nightmare.

When it comes down to it, most people with political opinions are opportunists, wherever they are on the political spectrum. I'm honest enough to include myself in that at times.
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Old 08-04-2013, 15:10
minxymash48
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True to an extent, but it also stops you from forgetting what caused it in the first place. Thatcher may have long left the political arena, but her policies haven't. You don't move on when you're still in the middle of it.



Not when so much is dictated by economic policies, education policies &c. You can only work with what you've been dealt. Many don't appreciate how few cards some have been dealt with or have had taken away. That's a fact, no matter what Ayn Rand &c might have said.

Maybe so. However, schadenfreude isn't unique to this event and is expressed by many across all political spectrum. Do you really, honestly think that right wing press, commentators, posters, tweeters and the like will be especially gracious when Blair or Brown die?
Hi Primarcho

In response to your first point I would ask you if you thought that remembering, rather than forgetting (what caused it in the first place) has brought peace and fulfillment to the life of the person who posted on here so nastily as soon as the death of Mrs Thatcher was announced? Do you honestly think that he or she not moving on has made them happy?

I agree with your second statement up to a point but there comes a stage at some time in your life when you have to take responsibility for yourself and do your best with "what youve been dealt". What does it achieve by blaming others all the time? If you are fit and able just get on with it!!!!

Concluding, I dont know what the right wing press will say about Mr Blair and Mr Brown when the time comes. But I would hope that they at least show a bit of respect for the dead persons family and friends. That might be a bit naive of me but I was always taught to show respect for the dead (mainly for the sake of their family who have lost someone they loved) as part of being a decent human being.

Nice to talk to you.
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Old 08-04-2013, 15:25
RegTheHedge
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As far as Tony Blair is concerned I would have thought the right wing media will be almost as praising. Blair was one of the biggest political deceivers in history, someone who used the Labour party purely to advance his own career by pretending to be a Socialist to begin with
Indeed .Blair used his adopted party like a Trojan horse .It was undeniably smart stuff .

Brown in contrast was an utter disaster in the true spirit of Labour .
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Old 08-04-2013, 16:04
susie-4964
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Iain Dale (the Tory blogger) on why we should be able to criticise the negative things people did while they were alive (after their deaths):

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/0...aret-thatcher/
Nobody's saying you can't criticise the negative things. There;s a difference between intelligent criticism and mud-slinging just because someone's died and you can.
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Old 08-04-2013, 16:52
habby
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Although Ken Livingstone has had a word already about Margaret Thatcher, its 5 days until he can comment on the radio.

I'm sure him and David Mellor will have a lot to say about it.
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:32
TragicDoggie
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George Galloway a few minutes after the death of former Conservative Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, the Respect MP for Bradford West took to Twitter writing "Tramp the dirt down".

And his party is called Respect What a shame that he, as a politician does not have or show any.

Edit. You have just gone down in my opinion Galloway. Any 'Respect' I had for you is now gone, forever.

Last edited by TragicDoggie : 08-04-2013 at 17:42. Reason: To add info
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Old 08-04-2013, 18:25
makeba72
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George Galloway a few minutes after the death of former Conservative Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, the Respect MP for Bradford West took to Twitter writing "Tramp the dirt down".

And his party is called Respect What a shame that he, as a politician does not have or show any.

Edit. You have just gone down in my opinion Galloway. Any 'Respect' I had for you is now gone, forever.
I won't get the quotation right, but I largely agree with the sentiment the person below was trying to express, anyway...

I remember someone saying that they agreed with much of what George Galloway said politically, but it was a great shame that those things were being said by such an obnoxious person.
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Old 08-04-2013, 18:29
Charlie Drake
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George Galloway a few minutes after the death of former Conservative Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, the Respect MP for Bradford West took to Twitter writing "Tramp the dirt down".

And his party is called Respect What a shame that he, as a politician does not have or show any.

Edit. You have just gone down in my opinion Galloway. Any 'Respect' I had for you is now gone, forever.
It's a reference to a line from an Elvis Costello song from the Thatcher era - as you may or may not know.

Feelings were running extremely high in those days and there was a strong feeling of anarchy in the air, as personified by (amongst others) the punk movement.

I personally witnessed running battles between police and striking miners which were absolutely horrific.

All of this, of course, culminated in the infamous 'Battle of Trafalgar' which spelled the end of the Thatcher era.

None of the above excuses The Respect MP for Bradford West, but I just wanted to put this in context.

Times have changed and moved on, but some people, as has been stated, are unable to let bygones be bygones.

Many families and communities were extremely badly treated during those times and I suspect that it will take several generations (if ever) to rebuild the sense of pride and belonging that they once had.
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Old 08-04-2013, 18:55
TragicDoggie
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It's a reference to a line from an Elvis Costello song from the Thatcher era - as you may or may not know.

Feelings were running extremely high in those days and there was a strong feeling of anarchy in the air, as personified by (amongst others) the punk movement.

I personally witnessed running battles between police and striking miners which were absolutely horrific.

All of this, of course, culminated in the infamous 'Battle of Trafalgar' which spelled the end of the Thatcher era.

None of the above excuses The Respect MP for Bradford West, but I just wanted to put this in context.

Times have changed and moved on, but some people, as has been stated, are unable to let bygones be bygones.

Many families and communities were extremely badly treated during those times and I suspect that it will take several generations (if ever) to rebuild the sense of pride and belonging that they once had.
I am not sure what most of this has to do with Him tweeting what He did a few minutes after the death of M T.
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Old 08-04-2013, 19:06
puddytat
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George Galloway a few minutes after the death of former Conservative Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, the Respect MP for Bradford West took to Twitter writing "Tramp the dirt down".

And his party is called Respect What a shame that he, as a politician does not have or show any.

Edit. You have just gone down in my opinion Galloway. Any 'Respect' I had for you is now gone, forever.
He doesn't know the meaning of the word.
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Old 08-04-2013, 19:07
Charlie Drake
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I am not sure what most of this has to do with Him tweeting what He did a few minutes after the death of M T.
Sorry, Tragic, I thought I'd made it clear that the words "Tramp the dirt down' were from an Elvis Costello song (and were a sign of the times). They were not original from George, but a reference to the era, via the song.

I hope that's clearer?

I would give a link, but I'm sure a simple Google would do the trick. *

p.s. Not sure why you felt the need to type in bold. My eyesight is still reasonably good for an old codger!

* p.p.s. OK - here you go: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/e/elvis+c..._20047487.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4-zDem1Sk some good friends of mine are playing on this.
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Old 08-04-2013, 19:39
TomWhitton
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Are people genuinely not aware of how hated she was? If you were left-wing in the '80's, then you hated her. Hated her. And the fact that she's had a huge influence on politics since then (whether that's the Labour party turning to the right or the increasing amount of privatisation of industry since she left) hasn't made the hatred go away. Personally, I'd much rather that people expressed their still genuine anger at her and her legacy (which is really what this anger is about) rather than just being diplomatic about it all.
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Old 08-04-2013, 19:42
chinchin
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Are people genuinely not aware of how hated she was? If you were left-wing in the '80's, then you hated her. Hated her. And the fact that she's had a huge influence on politics since then (whether that's the Labour party turning to the right or the increasing amount of privatisation of industry since she left) hasn't made the hatred go away. Personally, I'd much rather that people expressed their still genuine anger at her and her legacy (which is really what this anger is about) rather than just being diplomatic about it all.
Interesting article from the Guardian on this very topic:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...eath-etiquette
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Old 08-04-2013, 20:02
TomWhitton
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Interesting article from the Guardian on this very topic:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...eath-etiquette
That looks interesting. Thanks for the link.
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Old 08-04-2013, 21:13
clitheroe1
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Hi there

I don't disagree with very much there, CD.

My own and oft-expressed view is that the original thread was just fine as it was. I was a fence-sitter in that respect.

To summarise my own view:

1) LBC has dramatically changed and it was no surprise that the thread did. In fact, for the thread to try to not change is, to my mind, to force it to be 'off-topic'.

2) I think that the small band have put off more people posting by their own antics than they claim were put off by the way the thread changed. I've seen lots of new faces appear to mention something they heard on air ('political') and disappear when they were told off by the small band.

3) Martin's knees were never, ever on-topic, yet dominate so-called LBC discussion. Again, I personally liked that banter, although I rarely contribute. My objection was the hypocrisy of those who were blind to the masses of their own off-topic chatter. Can't help myself - I always have to challenge stuff like that! Equally, lots and lots of political one-liners were apparently OK, but replying to those was not (at least, by their rules).

4) Also, the small group was nowhere near as friendly or welcoming as it thought it was. Wind-ups and teasing are only ever allowed to be one-way traffic. And in the end, after a while, ends up leaving a bad taste in the mouth. Scratch the surface of some of that, and you end up seeing some unpleasant stuff, I often feel.

Gosh - better stop there. Yes, I hope both threads can survive, but the old one won't be an LBC thread unless the small group can be more flexible, I feel. And if that's the case, it deserves to be in the chat threads.
Excellent comments, I totally agree.
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