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Aluminium wire being sold as copper? |
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#1 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Aluminium wire being sold as copper?
I've recently been setting up my AV and speakers (Denon 1713 plus Wharfedale DX-1). I got some wire from here -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2906012143...84.m1497.l2649 Looked a decent buy for just £1.00 per metre - or so I thought. After wiring everything up (a real PITA, by the way), I noticed, by accident really, that the cable is in fact not copper at all. I scraped the wire with a Stanley knife, and would you believe it, what copper was on the wire simply flaked off and revealed underneath, in all its glory, the silvery allure of good old fashioned aluminium. See here for the evidence - http://imageshack.us/f/69/064xz.jpg/ This wire does not even look like CCA, rather an aluminium wire coated with an extremely thin layer of copper. Now, I do know that people sell CCA as a cheaper alternative to pure copper - but I'm guessing those sellers do at least have the courtesy to inform potential buyers of this. The seller's auctions clearly and unambiguously state that this is OFC, and there is no mention of the word "aluminium" anywhere. I have looked at all of the cable he sells, and the same result. Now, unless I have got this completely wrong, this guy might be selling (or already sold) thousands of metres of this stuff in the full knowledge that it is not what it is stated as. I would very much appreciate any feedback regarding this before I go all guns blazing at the cheek of this fellow. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 664
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The seller may not know himself. He might just be buying in bulk from China and reselling so I wouldn't necessarily go all guns blazing without the facts. Might be just as much victim as yourself.
Send him a message explaining your findings and see what the reply is. If it's not satisfactory, and by that I mean... if he doesn't change the description to accurately describe the product and refund you then you can take it further, perhaps by eBay's dispute centre or even trading standards? |
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#3 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 19
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Yep - it's getting more and more common.
Last year I had to inform the data installers of a retail store to replace the 3000mtrs of CAT5e that was not CAT5e. CAT5e must be copper. They installed, un-beknown to them, a cheap cable made of copper clad aluminium. Some wholesalers now weigh the boxes of cable as copper is much heavier than aluminium. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Well, I've opened a case with ebay, and I'll see what his response is to my complaint.
I do find it very difficult to believe that he doesn't know what he's selling, as he must cut custom lengths of this wire every single day. He must be making a fortune selling this for £1.00 a metre. I'll keep you guys posted!! |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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He offered to pay a refund immediately, so I think it's fairly obvious he knows what he's selling. Interesting.
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#6 |
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sussex
Posts: 12,173
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Slightly related, about a year ago I noticed a well known manufacturer of vehicle radio equipment (transceivers) was supplying their hefty 12v dc power cables in this way, copper plated aluminium.... these were thick red/black dc cables rated at 20amp/12v. So I guess it saves them a ton of money when they're supplying millions of them.
I suppose it won't matter as long as there isn't any metalurgic reaction between the two metals causing resistance etc. |
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#7 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sandy Heath, Beds. UK
Posts: 10,386
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I did a bit of research:
The resistivity of aluminium is 65% higher than that of copper. As a result, to conduct the same electrical current, an aluminium cable will need a cross-section that is 65% larger than that of a copper cable. But that's not the whole story. While less conductive, aluminium is also three times lighter than copper. As a result, copper and aluminium each have their own application areas. |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 6,180
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Quote:
He offered to pay a refund immediately, so I think it's fairly obvious he knows what he's selling. Interesting.
I would do the same in his situation. |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 6,462
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Chinese sourced gear - cheap - turns out to be a fake..... Why is this any surprise at all?
The Chinese are, I am sorry to say, quite without scruples. If someone wants to buy something dirt cheap then the Chinese will find a way to supply it. What's more they'll do so at a profit to themselves. |
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#10 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Redditch Worcs
Posts: 17,296
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Quote:
I did a bit of research:
The resistivity of aluminium is 65% higher than that of copper. As a result, to conduct the same electrical current, an aluminium cable will need a cross-section that is 65% larger than that of a copper cable. But that's not the whole story. While less conductive, aluminium is also three times lighter than copper. As a result, copper and aluminium each have their own application areas. For higher frequencies than 50Hz as needed for loudspeaker connections, skin effect means the current is even more concentrated in the outer part of the conductor (in the copper area of a composite conductor). This means that you can't use a straight forward cross sectional area as a comparison when composite materials are involved. |
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#11 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Doesn't mean that at all - just means he's happy to refund you as he's been notified there is a problem.
I would do the same in his situation. The rule of thumb I use is simple. For speaker wire, buy the fattest / thickest wire you can afford - that is to say the cable with the greatest cross-sectional area ( usually shown in square millimetres ( such as 1.0 mm² or 3.00 mm² ) The number of strands per conductor e.g. 326 Strand can be an indication of "thickness" - but it is possible to have fewer strands of thick cable e.g. 79 strands x 0.20 mm. compared or 189 strands x 0.10 mm; so the only way to compare cables is to look at the cross-sectional area or CSA The quality of copper is also important - always make sure you purchase OFC Copper - ( Oxygen Free Copper ) All the speaker cable I sell on Ebay is OFC and it's CSA is clearly shown so you compare it with other cable from other sellers MA Speaker Cable More copper translates to better overall tone and frequencies being passed to your speakers from your amplifier What is also important in speaker cables is how you terminate them. You want to ensure that you have the tightest connection of the cable to your amp and loudspeaker to minimize contact resistance. For this, I recommend either spades or banana plugs. Despite the fact that Spades generally have greater surface area contact than banana plugs, I have found that banana plugs usually make for a better connection to most commercial binding posts found on loudspeakers and amplifiers. Always remember to keep you speaker cable runs as short as possible and not to loop excessive cables as this may increase cable inductance. I think not. Plus, he's taken down his contact details, and changed his returns address. It hasn't stopped him advertising the product as OFC, though. Not suspicious at all! |
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#12 |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Redditch Worcs
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Oxygen Free Copper equates to Snake Oil. It makes zero difference to the sound, just makes copper less liable to corrosion in the presence of H20 (Not normally a problem for speaker wires). Most copper is produced using the Oxygen free process anyway.
Amazing the guff so called audiophiles will swallow ![]() Try a blind test with normal mains cable and the most expensive Silver speaker cabling ? Never fails to amaze how spending more money must make it sound better. |
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#13 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Oxygen Free Copper equates to Snake Oil. It makes zero difference to the sound, just makes copper less liable to corrosion in the presence of H20 (Not normally a problem for speaker wires). Most copper is produced using the Oxygen free process anyway.
Amazing the guff so called audiophiles will swallow ![]() Try a blind test with normal mains cable and the most expensive Silver speaker cabling ? Never fails to amaze how spending more money must make it sound better. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Redditch Worcs
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Quote:
I agree, it's largely psychological. Mind you, describing a product as copper and then sending aluminium is definitely not psychological!
![]() Fancy making your HiFi sound better http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WSOOZOOHDTUHWG |
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#15 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Reading
Posts: 27,926
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Quote:
Totally agree. For the reasons discussed though there is likely to be little discernible difference if proper blind tests were carried out compared to a similar cross sectional cable made from pure copper. A length of 2.5MM T&E is likely to outperform both
![]() Fancy making your HiFi sound better http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WSOOZOOHDTUHWG Now THIS on the other hand... http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1564 That's more like it.
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#16 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 579
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Gulp!..............for a cable
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#17 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Reading
Posts: 27,926
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Quote:
Gulp!..............for a cable
http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1019 And apparently a metal backing box for your mains sockets degrades the performance so you need to fit plastic ones... http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1808 I do wonder sometimes if Russ Andrews is real or just laughing up his sleeve at how stupid some people are to believe all this BS!
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
If you think that's mad how about just over 3 quid each for a fuse!
http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1019 And apparently a metal backing box for your mains sockets degrades the performance so you need to fit plastic ones... http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1808 I do wonder sometimes if Russ Andrews is real or just laughing up his sleeve at how stupid some people are to believe all this BS! ![]() |
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#19 |
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Guest
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
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Quote:
I wouldn't sully my HiFi with such a cheap and nasty product as that.
Now THIS on the other hand... http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...GBP&pf_id=1564 That's more like it. ![]() ![]() http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WSOOZOOHDTUHWG If you need a longer length, say 3.5m, this can be had for a little bit more......
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 6,462
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You're going OT gentlemen. This direction has been done to death many times over.
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Save a few more pennies and upgrade to this......
![]() http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WSOOZOOHDTUHWG If you need a longer length, say 3.5m, this can be had for a little bit more...... ![]() |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Northern Scottish Highlands
Posts: 11,307
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Quote:
Oxygen Free Copper equates to Snake Oil. It makes zero difference to the sound, just makes copper less liable to corrosion in the presence of H20 (Not normally a problem for speaker wires). Most copper is produced using the Oxygen free process anyway.
Amazing the guff so called audiophiles will swallow ![]() Try a blind test with normal mains cable and the most expensive Silver speaker cabling ? Never fails to amaze how spending more money must make it sound better. The aluminium cable the OP has bought will be perfectly good for his speakers and I guarantee in a blind test he would not notice if it was swapped for th "genuine" stuff. |
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fylde Coast
Posts: 8,103
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Quote:
Exactly.
The aluminium cable the OP has bought will be perfectly good for his speakers and I guarantee in a blind test he would not notice if it was swapped for th "genuine" stuff. Weight isn't usually a problem with audio installations but the thickness of cable to get the same result causes problems. |
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Exactly.
The aluminium cable the OP has bought will be perfectly good for his speakers and I guarantee in a blind test he would not notice if it was swapped for th "genuine" stuff. |
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 6,180
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Quote:
It doesn't matter whether it sounds the same or not, that's not the issue here. What matters is that I thought I was buying a product which turns out to be something entirely different. At best his advert is misleading, at worst it is a deliberate deception. Never mind, I've returned it for a refund and sent a complaint to ebay. Let them sort it out.
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