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Old 21-04-2013, 17:44
MarellaK
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But that's the problem. They don't defend themselves. And that's why breeders are experimenting.

What do you think gentle and docile means? You agree they are docile but still think they are just as able defend themselves just as well? Nope. Typically they dont. Mine would whine at a big dog.

I don't know any reputable breeder who would give a Ragdoll kitten to someone wanting an outdoor cat.

You don't like it when people have a go at Ragdoll owners for keeping their cats indoors against their will. I can understand that and I have some sympathy for the view that they are too soppy for their own good.
My colleague has a ragdoll who goes outside, I assure you he is a full pedigree and has survived 7 years of being allowed outside. Several posters on this thread have ragdoll cats who at least go into their own gardens. The cattery owner who looks after my cats has about 7 ragdoll cats of her own (it may be more ) but they're always outside in the garden when I go there to board my cats. Surely they can't all be exceptions to the rule?

As for 'docile', many ordinary moggies can be described as docile and non aggressive, including my own, past and present. Outside, most neighbourhood cats form their own social hierarchy and docile, non aggressive cats just mind their own business and keep away from any trouble. None of my cats have ever got into any fights outdoors and, if they did, I am sure they would act submissive or try to escape rather than fight back.

Cats are cats when all is said and done. As I said earlier, my parents' persian is an outdoor mouse catcher. Cats adapt to their environments and owners' lifestyles. Nurture takes over from nature but I know owners of pedigree cats are very anxious to safeguard their cats wellbeing. Those who choose to keep their cats indoors have every right to do so but shouldn't be dictating their opinions on people who choose to allow their cats even some restricted outdoor access.

All the ragdoll photos are lovely. They are a very beautiful breed but their fur does look like hard work.
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:09
husted
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My colleague has a ragdoll who goes outside, I assure you he is a full pedigree and has survived 7 years of being allowed outside. Several posters on this thread have ragdoll cats who at least go into their own gardens. The cattery owner who looks after my cats has about 7 ragdoll cats of her own (it may be more ) but they're always outside in the garden when I go there to board my cats. Surely they can't all be exceptions to the rule?

As for 'docile', many ordinary moggies can be described as docile and non aggressive, including my own, past and present. Outside, most neighbourhood cats form their own social hierarchy and docile, non aggressive cats just mind their own business and keep away from any trouble. None of my cats have ever got into any fights outdoors and, if they did, I am sure they would act submissive or try to escape rather than fight back.

Cats are cats when all is said and done. As I said earlier, my parents' persian is an outdoor mouse catcher. Cats adapt to their environments and owners' lifestyles. Nurture takes over from nature but I know owners of pedigree cats are very anxious to safeguard their cats wellbeing. Those who choose to keep their cats indoors have every right to do so but shouldn't be dictating their opinions on people who choose to allow their cats even some restricted outdoor access.

All the ragdoll photos are lovely. They are a very beautiful breed but their fur does look like hard work.
I haven't dictated any opinions on any people. And it has nothing to do with being pedigree.

Persians aren't the same as Ragdolls.

Safe outdoor access is an entirely different thing from free roaming. Cant think why safe outdoor access would ever be a problem.

Cats arent just cats . If cats were just cats, these breeders TWC refers to wouldn't be trying to breed out the extreme gentleness out of Ragdolls.

So you're completely wrong.
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:21
TWS
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I haven't dictated any opinions on any people. And it has nothing to do with being pedigree.

Persians aren't the same as Ragdolls.

Safe outdoor access is an entirely different thing from free roaming. Cant think why safe outdoor access would ever be a problem.

Cats arent just cats . If cats were just cats, these breeders TWC refers to wouldn't be trying to breed out the extreme gentleness out of Ragdolls.

So you're completely wrong.
american ones are far more docile than the british ones and gentle and easily handling with humans does not make it unsuitable for outdoors you just dont seem to get it, i know a few free roaming ragdolls personally (not hearsay) and it is not a problem there are two in my neighbourhood one rules the entire estate.

My cousins ragdoll is also an amazing ratter and micer and spends 90% of his time outdoors

You are clearly going to believe what you you like but ime ragdolls can live outside just as well as any other standard moggy if given the chance to it all depends on what they are exposed to like i said mine beats up dogs whereas yours would be afraid of a big dog and cry according to you
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:22
MarellaK
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Persians aren't the same as Ragdolls.

Cats arent just cats . If cats were just cats, these breeders TWC refers to wouldn't be trying to breed out the extreme gentleness out of Ragdolls.

So you're completely wrong.
I'm not completely wrong, I just have a different opinion on the nature versus nurture debate.

Persians are also considered an indoor breed so I was giving yet another example of an exception to a rule.

As for trying to breed out characteristics, weren't those characteristics artificially developed in the first place? Many breeders manipulate traits so that, in time, the breed develops and changes. If, as you say, ragdolls are exceptionally trusting and gentle (though there aren't too many examples of those on this thread or of ragdolls I am personally aware of) then it is probably a good thing that these characteristics are being bred out - then, ragdoll owners will have to find another excuse to keep their cats confined indoors.
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:36
sadmuppet
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- then, ragdoll owners will have to find another excuse to keep their cats confined indoors.
The lack of slugs entombed in the fur would probably be a good start!!!
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:39
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we use baby powder too no problems that i have ever heard of with ingestion (but you never know!!) found half a tree in my cat yesterday had to hold her by her scruff until me arm almost fell off trying to sort her out and as said she is a bit of an evil minx lol.

Maine coons i love i keep looking at them when i go to shows and keep thinking i want one but probably wont happen and will end up with another raggie thinking a cream boy
Thanks a lot - I'll try it!

Holding by the scruff is always interesting given they are quite big and heavy!

My Coone was the most beautiful cat - she ruled the neighbourhood - everyone loved her! She was full of personality and a real people cat - gorgeous! Unfortunately, we lost her at the age of 4 to bowel cancer...
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:46
TWS
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I'm not completely wrong, I just have a different opinion on the nature versus nurture debate.

Persians are also considered an indoor breed so I was giving yet another example of an exception to a rule.

As for trying to breed out characteristics, weren't those characteristics artificially developed in the first place? Many breeders manipulate traits so that, in time, the breed develops and changes. If, as you say, ragdolls are exceptionally trusting and gentle (though there aren't too many examples of those on this thread or of ragdolls I am personally aware of) then it is probably a good thing that these characteristics are being bred out - then, ragdoll owners will have to find another excuse to keep their cats confined indoors.
just looked at problem ragdolls juct clicked on first link sounds like my cat had to laugh

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-train...-cat-help.html

defo a few misfits out there but i have noticed with most animals the female teenagers can be real miscreants
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:50
husted
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I'm not completely wrong, I just have a different opinion on the nature versus nurture debate.

Persians are also considered an indoor breed so I was giving yet another example of an exception to a rule.

As for trying to breed out characteristics, weren't those characteristics artificially developed in the first place? Many breeders manipulate traits so that, in time, the breed develops and changes. If, as you say, ragdolls are exceptionally trusting and gentle (though there aren't too many examples of those on this thread or of ragdolls I am personally aware of) then it is probably a good thing that these characteristics are being bred out - then, ragdoll owners will have to find another excuse to keep their cats confined indoors.
There's no rules for gods sake.

Its obvious that you have an issue with indoor cats with endless posts on indoor/outdoor cat threads.

I'm not interested in that boring old argument.
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:51
TWS
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Thanks a lot - I'll try it!

Holding by the scruff is always interesting given they are quite big and heavy!

My Coone was the most beautiful cat - she ruled the neighbourhood - everyone loved her! She was full of personality and a real people cat - gorgeous! Unfortunately, we lost her at the age of 4 to bowel cancer...
thats so sad losing any animal so young is heartbreaking i lost my big man (dog) at 4 to a brain tumour http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ovember025.jpg

HCM is quite prevailant in the raggies or has been the GCCF and breeders are working hard to screen it out now it is amazing how different things are in the pedigree cat world compared to the pedigree dog world
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Old 21-04-2013, 18:58
avasgranny
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Loved the photos of the REAL cats and your gorgeous dog tws. to the pretendy cat.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:06
bazaar1
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There's no rules for gods sake.

Its obvious that you have an issue with indoor cats with endless posts on indoor/outdoor cat threads.

I'm not interested in that boring old argument.
I think that tws and Marella have both been fairly reasonable in putting their points of view across, you however refuse to accept that not every rag doll acts the way you think it should, and that not every owner behaves like you do. It's nothing to do with the indoor outdoor debate, it was a few forum members saying that rag dolls are not always the way the text books say they are. A cat can be docile with its owners and still be able to fight outside if needs be, that's doesn't mean your wrong, it just means there is more in the world for you to discover, step out of your box, where you know everything and are always right.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:11
husted
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I think that tws and Marella have both been fairly reasonable in putting their points of view across, you however refuse to accept that not every rag doll acts the way you think it should, and that not every owner behaves like you do. It's nothing to do with the indoor outdoor debate, it was a few forum members saying that rag dolls are not always the way the text books say they are. A cat can be docile with its owners and still be able to fight outside if needs be, that's doesn't mean your wrong, it just means there is more in the world for you to discover, step out of your box, where you know everything and are always right.
I've said umpteen times that I'm talking about the breed and not individual cats. Or owners.

I can quote every one of those times if you like.

So find someone else to patronize.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:26
bazaar1
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I've said umpteen times that I'm talking about the breed and not individual cats. Or owners.

I can quote every one of those times if you like.

So find someone else to patronize.
But you dismiss others points of view, like I said, you refuse to accept that there is a possibility that rag dolls are not the helpless animals you believe them to be, that a large proportion of that is due to the way they are treated. Tws breeds them, yet you still refuse to even consider that you might not be the authority on this.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:27
sadmuppet
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thats so sad losing any animal so young is heartbreaking i lost my big man (dog) at 4 to a brain tumour http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ovember025.jpg

HCM is quite prevailant in the raggies or has been the GCCF and breeders are working hard to screen it out now it is amazing how different things are in the pedigree cat world compared to the pedigree dog world
We lost a raggy to polycystic kidney disease at 6 months and we were told that it is another not uncommon disease in the breed. Luckily, our present one was clear and is now a disgustingly healthy 11 year old!

It certainly is sad when you lose a pet, especially when they are young! Our Coone, Noodles, was very sick when she was around 6-8 months when she had mastitis and had a radical mastectomy and all her breast tissue removed - the vet removed 1kg of growth (we 'd tried all other treatments but the growths just got bigger and bigger) and basically opened her from stem to stern!

It was always amusing when young vets examined her afterwards as they could never work out why she had no nipples!! She was a celebrity in the vets as no-one thought she'd survive!

Here she is:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps739177d1.jpg
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:34
MarellaK
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There's no rules for gods sake.

Its obvious that you have an issue with indoor cats with endless posts on indoor/outdoor cat threads.

I'm not interested in that boring old argument.
I have an issue with being told that cats must be kept indoors, for varying reasons..... I don't have any issue with people choosing to keep their own cats indoors - just that they shouldn't dictate to others who may have a different mindset.

As for your comment about my 'endless posts' I find that quite rude as I believe that my post count still only averages just over one post per day, less than your own, and many of my recent posts are now in other DS subforums. I thought I had the freedom to post in any thread of my choice? It's a discussion forum after all.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:36
Yeah_Jackie
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One thing is for sure, Ragdolls are troublemakers
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:40
sadmuppet
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One thing is for sure, Ragdolls are troublemakers
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:45
bazaar1
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One thing is for sure, Ragdolls are troublemakers
I disagree. There is nothing in the breed guidelines to suggest this is true.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:47
husted
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But you dismiss others points of view, like I said, you refuse to accept that there is a possibility that rag dolls are not the helpless animals you believe them to be, that a large proportion of that is due to the way they are treated. Tws breeds them, yet you still refuse to even consider that you might not be the authority on this.
I suggest you read back. TWC refers to breeders trying to breed out the extreme gentleness out of Ragdolls.

Now is that because they think they are too gentle with their owners? Why would that be a problem? Or because they are too gentle in dangerous situations?

Of course it's because they are too gentle in dangerous situations. So roaming free is often not possible for Raggies.
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Old 21-04-2013, 19:48
MarellaK
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One thing is for sure, Ragdolls are troublemakers
I laughed when I read that. The OP seems to have been forgotten but she's started a heated debate - she's probably feeling that she's done her job.
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Old 21-04-2013, 20:02
TWS
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I suggest you read back. TWC refers to breeders trying to breed out the extreme gentleness out of Ragdolls.

Now is that because they think they are too gentle with their owners? Why would that be a problem? Or because they are too gentle in dangerous situations?

Of course it's because they are too gentle in dangerous situations. So roaming free is often not possible for Raggies.
I said the ragdolls we have now are less docile and submissive than those bred originally in the states not that there is a bunch of breeders in the back garden training their ragdolls to be ninjas and not pussies.

What i am saying is as much as the breed standard says docile placid limpness etc that does not define the ragdoll like most animals imo they are a product of their upbringing as much as their nature, they are no less wiley and intelligent than standard moggies and are more than capable of fighting back or even starting it.

I have never said they are not more docile and placid than a standard moggy and have said this defnitely helps in a multi cat household when you have twelve of them and sometimes a litter of kittens on top.

I have also stated that ragdoll males tend to be more docile and laid back than females but i have seen that in a lot of species. All cats are different yes all people are different but ime as a breed and a species they are not the helpless precious pussies people make them out to be.
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Old 21-04-2013, 20:03
TWS
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But you dismiss others points of view, like I said, you refuse to accept that there is a possibility that rag dolls are not the helpless animals you believe them to be, that a large proportion of that is due to the way they are treated. Tws breeds them, yet you still refuse to even consider that you might not be the authority on this.
my family breeds them i just end up with the deviants apparantly well she is very unladylike let alone unragdoll like.
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Old 21-04-2013, 20:06
TWS
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this is our traitor in the ranks a ragamuffin a lot of breeders have gone over to the muffins but i still prefer the ragdolls myself good job too i would be considered a traitor to my family although i loved the snowshoes at the latest show, dont tell!

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/TWS01/012-1.jpg
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Old 21-04-2013, 20:16
bazaar1
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this is our traitor in the ranks a ragamuffin a lot of breeders have gone over to the muffins but i still prefer the ragdolls myself good job too i would be considered a traitor to my family although i loved the snowshoes at the latest show, dont tell!

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/TWS01/012-1.jpg
Excuse my ignorance.....what's the difference?
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Old 21-04-2013, 20:24
TWS
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Excuse my ignorance.....what's the difference?
imo not a lot (but i say the same about birmans too but dont tell anyone) a lot of the muffins just look like a fluffy average moggy they seem to be more block colours over the points the finer details of breeding and telling them apart goes in one ear and out the other to me.

Think it was more of a divorce between breeders and breeding council body type people
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