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Series 7b is really Series 8... anyone else feel like we're being conned?


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Old 22-04-2013, 14:55
cat666
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There have been threads like this previously. One guy even did the maths between Tennant and Smith and got all snotty when it challenged.

I think we've been cheated personally, 1 series over 2 years instead of 1 series over 1 year excluding specials is pretty clearly less Who than we are used to, and you can argue that the quality of the stories has actually diminished. It also wasn't handled very well. Back when Tennant had his specials we knew it was a blip, we were told in advance and everyone was happy. This time it seems a battle has raged between the BBC and Moffat and the fans have been the ones to lose out.
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Old 22-04-2013, 14:55
johnnysaucepn
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Thanks - this is exactly my point. We've effectively had 2 half-sized series over 2 years instead of 2 full series.
Which is quibbling over semantics. You could call it one series, you could call it two series - it doesn't change the number of episodes or the period over which they're broadcast, and I don't see how calling it one series hoodwinks anyone.

They call it one series because it has been commissioned and produced as one series. You can consider it two miniseries if you like.
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Old 22-04-2013, 15:07
neutralned
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I see it as two different series, they might call it one, but it has new writers, new characters, was shot at a different time, etc. I do find it confusing when people refer to 'earlier in Season 7' but I think no-one is going to change their mind on that point, it's either new or isn't new depending on how pedantic you are.

I think the OP's point is a good one though - if I present it in another way, how come US series appear to be able to produce 12 issue seasons year after year, (ie Buffy, West Wing) but we get 3 episodes p.a. Sherlock and years of Dr Who where they can't sustain that output? Is it money, time slots, or are our actors just a lazy bunch?
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Old 22-04-2013, 15:18
C. Samurai
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you can argue that the quality of the stories has actually diminished.
The quality of the stories has nothing to do with the number of episodes and gaps we get...and if you ask many of us, there's been nothing wrong all season where that's concerned.
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Old 22-04-2013, 15:28
Joe_Zel
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The biggest difference between UK and US is money and the money the UK networks have they want to split and spend on different shows rather than having endless seasons of the same shows they just keep to 6-13 episode series.

Sherlock is different, they make 3 movies. So slightly different.
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Old 22-04-2013, 15:48
cat666
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The quality of the stories has nothing to do with the number of episodes and gaps we get...and if you ask many of us, there's been nothing wrong all season where that's concerned.
Which is why I said "you could argue"

My opinion is that series 7 hasn't been as strong as Matt's previous 2, and that Matt's series have been weaker when compared to any of Ecclestone's/Tennant's. It's not a dig at Matt, he is great, but some of the stories have been awful, and most have been Doctor Who by numbers. There was a time when Doctor Who was the highlight of my week, and after being excited about it's return and watching the first couple of episodes, I keep finding things I'd rather do than watch the next 2. It was never like this before!
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Old 22-04-2013, 16:03
DiscoP
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Which is why I said "you could argue"

My opinion is that series 7 hasn't been as strong as Matt's previous 2, and that Matt's series have been weaker when compared to any of Ecclestone's/Tennant's. It's not a dig at Matt, he is great, but some of the stories have been awful, and most have been Doctor Who by numbers. There was a time when Doctor Who was the highlight of my week, and after being excited about it's return and watching the first couple of episodes, I keep finding things I'd rather do than watch the next 2. It was never like this before!
Why is series 7 worse for you? Do you think that the writing is weaker, or not keen on the standalone episodes? or do you think that all the waiting around for the second half to air hasn't helped?

It's difficult, when I think of the quality of production I think of it in terms of the style of it, the quality of the acting, direction, special effects, score etc which is slightly different from the writing, which can be subjective. Do you think that the quality of production has increased but not the writing?
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Old 22-04-2013, 16:29
cat666
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Why is series 7 worse for you? Do you think that the writing is weaker, or not keen on the standalone episodes? or do you think that all the waiting around for the second half to air hasn't helped?

It's difficult, when I think of the quality of production I think of it in terms of the style of it, the quality of the acting, direction, special effects, score etc which is slightly different from the writing, which can be subjective. Do you think that the quality of production has increased but not the writing?
Only Asylum of the Daleks and Angels in Manhatten exceeded my expectations. The rest were either awful, or were simple Doctor Who by numbers stories. Power of Three and the recent Ring of blahdeblah, were just solved by blatant use of the sonic, sure use it to open doors, but as a cop out of the episode? It just cheapens it. The rest were simply just an OK story.

The actors are all brilliant, the production is amazing, it is just the stories that are letting the show down for me currently.
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Old 22-04-2013, 22:21
WonderWorld
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This is what if feels like

Series 6
A Christmas Carol
Space & Time
The Impossible Astronaut
Day of the Moon
The Curse of the Black Spot
The Doctor's Wife
The Rebel Flesh
The Almost People
A Good Man Goes to War

With the addition of the SJA
Death of the Doctor

Series 7

Let's Kill Hitler
Night Terrors
The Girl Who Waited
The God Complex
Bad Night
Good Night
First Night & Last Night
Closing Time
The Wedding of River Song
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe
Pond Life
Asylum of the Daleks
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
A Town Called Mercy
The Power of Three
The Angels Take Manhattan

Series 8

The Snowmen
The Bells of Saint John
The Rings of Akhaten
Cold War
Hide
Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
The Crimson Horror
Nightmare in Silver
The Name of the Doctor
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Old 22-04-2013, 22:31
davrosdodebird
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Only Asylum of the Daleks and Angels in Manhatten exceeded my expectations. The rest were either awful, or were simple Doctor Who by numbers stories. Power of Three and the recent Ring of blahdeblah, were just solved by blatant use of the sonic, sure use it to open doors, but as a cop out of the episode? It just cheapens it. The rest were simply just an OK story.

The actors are all brilliant, the production is amazing, it is just the stories that are letting the show down for me currently.
You seem not to have watched The Rings of Akhaten properly... in no way did the sonic screwdriver solve the problem. It opened a door and warded off an attack that visibly looked sonic-based. The Doctor himself, with help from Clara, solved the problem, NOT the sonic.
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Old 22-04-2013, 23:31
Kromm
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I know this has been mentioned before but in light of all the news about the 50th anniversary, I can't help but feel cheated by the BBC..
Cheated how? Its just a naming convention. Its playing to an expectation, I think, that 6 or 7 episodes isn't enough to call a series (or in the US a season), because with DVD/Blueray home video sales, people expect more episodes. it doesn't significantly change the viewability of these episodes.
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Old 22-04-2013, 23:46
Gene the Cow
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Of course there was less. They took a break in producing the show for 6 months.

We could be looking forward to Season 8 but instead they have scheduled it so that we get a one off special on the anniversary instead of it being part of a series.

Does it matter that much, we might not be getting as much Doctor Who right now if you use the end of 2013 as a cut-off point, but we will get whatever we were going to get eventually. Patience is a virtue!!!
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Old 23-04-2013, 07:11
Warmijwilf
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Exactly.
And really, does it matter anyway?
Yes, yes it does.

The point of the OP is, had production have been the same as usual, we would've had Series 7 + Christmas special in 2012, and Series 8 + Anniversary + Christmas special in 2013

What we've actually had in 2012 was half of a whole series during 2012 and half of one in 2013. Bringing the total number of episodes to 6 (2012) + 10 (2013) = 16 over 2 years. Compared to the usual 28 over two years.

So yes, it bloody does matter! Essentially we've been cheated out of 12 episodes which is almost an entire series. Also, in before someone brings the "oh, it's free they didn't have to make it at all" lame response and forgets that we as the public are paying the BBC for their productions through license fees.
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Old 23-04-2013, 07:28
13lives
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. Also, in before someone brings the "oh, it's free they didn't have to make it at all" lame response and forgets that we as the public are paying the BBC for their productions through license fees.
That didnt stop the BBC in the 80's cancelling it, for goodness sake cant people stop whining about everything
I for one am glad Dr Who is back on our screens regardless of how many episodes we get, and not about to throw a strop about the number of episodes.
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Old 23-04-2013, 07:36
mossy2103
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That didnt stop the BBC in the 80's cancelling it, for goodness sake cant people stop whining about everything
I for one am glad Dr Who is back on our screens regardless of how many episodes we get, and not about to throw a strop about the number of episodes.
Well said that man (or woman).
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Old 23-04-2013, 07:42
Kromm
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Yes, yes it does.

The point of the OP is, had production have been the same as usual, we would've had Series 7 + Christmas special in 2012, and Series 8 + Anniversary + Christmas special in 2013

What we've actually had in 2012 was half of a whole series during 2012 and half of one in 2013. Bringing the total number of episodes to 6 (2012) + 10 (2013) = 16 over 2 years. Compared to the usual 28 over two years.

So yes, it bloody does matter! Essentially we've been cheated out of 12 episodes which is almost an entire series. Also, in before someone brings the "oh, it's free they didn't have to make it at all" lame response and forgets that we as the public are paying the BBC for their productions through license fees.
Bull.

It was never going to happen anyway because of Moffat's time commitment to Sherlock. Unless the OP and other people claiming they've been "cheated" wanted Moffat REPLACED, then this whole topic is bull#&#. However you numbered them, Moffat was only going to have time to showrun this many episodes.
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Old 23-04-2013, 08:10
nebogipfel
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Which is quibbling over semantics. You could call it one series, you could call it two series - it doesn't change the number of episodes or the period over which they're broadcast, and I don't see how calling it one series hoodwinks anyone.

They call it one series because it has been commissioned and produced as one series. You can consider it two miniseries if you like.
Well, to be fair, the BBC did try to use the "all one series" thing to hoodwink everyone way back when first announced - when they tried to rebut the Private Eye story. But they fell flat on their face with it. And then there were one or two other statements from the production team after that which tried to use the "all one series" thing to hoodwink people.
So a certain amount of shiftiness and silliness from BBC people has been going on. People wouldn't feel hoodwinked if Cardiff had just stuck to Cohen's extremely straightforward way of saying "there won't be a full run in 2012". But instead they tried to undermine Cohen and muddy the water with various bits of nonsense.

It's not the arbitrary use of "all one series" that people found misleading. It was the pretence that quantity of output was not being affected.
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Old 23-04-2013, 08:45
Mulett
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For me, another issue is that the BBC announced that Doctor Who was returning to its traditional autumn slot. And this would mean (as it did in the old days) that each season would naturally be split across the end of the one year and the beginning of the next.

For me, that in itself wasn't a problem. I must admit I preferred the straight run from April onwards, but an (almost) continuous run from autumn to spring was OK too.

What's actually happened is that we got five episodes in September 2012, and then had to wait six months for the next seven episodes, in April 2013. Not exactly a continuous!

What also shows the original 'we're moving it back to the autumn' BBC announcement to be complete nonsense is that there's no sign of season 8 now starting this autumn.

The truth is we are getting fewer episodes, and unlike with the 2009 specials (when the BBC was very clear and honest about what was going on) we've been fed a series of complete untruths, leaving many fans and viewers grateful for whatever scraps they keep chucking us.
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:07
nebogipfel
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I doubt the way the BBC dealt with PR from 2011 to Moffat's peculiar attempt to sidestep announcing 1x60 minute anniversary special in that video interview recently is going to win any "PR Triumph" awards. The "things never turn out to mean quite what it sounded like was meant" business started with the supposed reasoning for the series six gap and went downhill from there.

Hopefully once they've worked out roughly what they intend for series 8 they will start being more straightforward about their plans.
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:25
Gene the Cow
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Yes, yes it does.

The point of the OP is, had production have been the same as usual, we would've had Series 7 + Christmas special in 2012, and Series 8 + Anniversary + Christmas special in 2013

What we've actually had in 2012 was half of a whole series during 2012 and half of one in 2013. Bringing the total number of episodes to 6 (2012) + 10 (2013) = 16 over 2 years. Compared to the usual 28 over two years.

So yes, it bloody does matter! Essentially we've been cheated out of 12 episodes which is almost an entire series. Also, in before someone brings the "oh, it's free they didn't have to make it at all" lame response and forgets that we as the public are paying the BBC for their productions through license fees.
IF the series was to stop now then we would have been cheated yes, however those episodes will still be made. Over a two calendar years we have had less episodes. There is no denying that but time doesn't stop at the end of this year does it?

If I had given you 13 apples a year for five years then said, oh I'm changing my distribution times you'll get these ones now and these ones at this time you aren't losing out on apples, you're just getting them at different times to normal

They are just going to be shown later than if a break wasn't taken. It's not cheating you out of anything at all
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:33
johnnysaucepn
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So yes, it bloody does matter! Essentially we've been cheated out of 12 episodes which is almost an entire series. Also, in before someone brings the "oh, it's free they didn't have to make it at all" lame response and forgets that we as the public are paying the BBC for their productions through license fees.
You haven't been 'cheated' out of anything. Nobody, nobody promised you a full 13+1 episodes in 2012 and a full 13+1 episodes in 2013. That was never offered to you, you weren't cheated out of them.

We should be grateful they're able to make any at all, not because it's cheap, but because it's expensive and difficult.

Of course I would like more episodes, who wouldn't? But I'm sure the BBC would make them if it could afford them, and the people to do it were available.

Did you feel cheated that we didn't get a full series in 2009?
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:53
be more pacific
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I posted this in response to a tantrum on the Anniversary Present thread:
Originally Posted by me
Years with less BBC-funded Doctor Who than 2013:
1986-1989* The last gasp.
1990-1995 Nothing except an egregious charity skit.
1996 A one-off TV movie.
1997-2004 Nothing except a charity skit and some crudely-animated webcasts.
2009 Alas, poor Ten...
2012 Something to Pond-er.

So, out of the last 27 years, 21 have had fewer episodes than we're getting for the 50th anniversary. I know certain people want to scream "LIAR!" at Moffat over the "more Doctor Who than ever" remark. However, eight episodes and two specials is pretty respectable and is more than is currently being produced for various other high-quality Drama programmes.




*Equivalent to 7 new series episodes per series.
Honestly, certain fans don't do themselves any favours with their entitlement issues.
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:00
macman11
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For me, another issue is that the BBC announced that Doctor Who was returning to its traditional autumn slot. And this would mean (as it did in the old days) that each season would naturally be split across the end of the one year and the beginning of the next.

For me, that in itself wasn't a problem. I must admit I preferred the straight run from April onwards, but an (almost) continuous run from autumn to spring was OK too.

What's actually happened is that we got five episodes in September 2012, and then had to wait six months for the next seven episodes, in April 2013. Not exactly a continuous!

What also shows the original 'we're moving it back to the autumn' BBC announcement to be complete nonsense is that there's no sign of season 8 now starting this autumn.

The truth is we are getting fewer episodes, and unlike with the 2009 specials (when the BBC was very clear and honest about what was going on) we've been fed a series of complete untruths, leaving many fans and viewers grateful for whatever scraps they keep chucking us.
This. Private Eye reported that it was likely that there wouldn't be a full series of episodes in 2012 which was vigorously denied by the BBC. The BBC confirmed there would be a "full series".

If they had been honest in the first place (like they were with the 2009 Specials) and admitted there wouldn't be the normal run of episodes that year, we would have a least known what to expect.

I don't know what it is with British shows (probably budget concerns) but any quality British show always seems to end up having a haphazard transmission schedule. When a British series finishes, you're never exactly sure when you will get new episodes, if at all, or how many of them there will be.

I have a hunch that, after the Anniversary and Christmas Specials, there will no new Doctor Who episodes until Autumn 2014. Even then, they will probably permanently move to a "Specials" format without a complete series. Cue the "we think Doctor Who episodes work better this way so as to make them a true event..." line from the BBC....
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:10
nebogipfel
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You haven't been 'cheated' out of anything. Nobody, nobody promised you a full 13+1 episodes in 2012 and a full 13+1 episodes in 2013. That was never offered to you, you weren't cheated out of them.

We should be grateful they're able to make any at all, not because it's cheap, but because it's expensive and difficult.

Of course I would like more episodes, who wouldn't? But I'm sure the BBC would make them if it could afford them, and the people to do it were available.

Did you feel cheated that we didn't get a full series in 2009?
Yes. I agree with almost all of this. We weren't offered twenty eight over two years. We were offered fourteen over two years plus an as then unknown quantity and variety of anniversary related things.

Which is why it was so frustrating that those of us who interpreted these things correctly and tried to remind people of what the most likely outcome would be, were routinely castigated and told that we were being pessimistic.

Unfortunately many people interpreted the poorly phrased and ill judged announcements from Cardiff as being optimistic hints of lots of episodes. Cardiff somewhat fuelled the "entitlement" culture by raising hopes.

A good question about whether people felt cheated about 2009. Seemingly not. Disappointed, perhaps, but not cheated. The difference? Better judged PR statements.
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:38
13lives
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You haven't been 'cheated' out of anything. Nobody, nobody promised you a full 13+1 episodes in 2012 and a full 13+1 episodes in 2013. That was never offered to you, you weren't cheated out of them.

We should be grateful they're able to make any at all, not because it's cheap, but because it's expensive and difficult.

Of course I would like more episodes, who wouldn't? But I'm sure the BBC would make them if it could afford them, and the people to do it were available.

Did you feel cheated that we didn't get a full series in 2009?
Couldnt have said it better, some people really need to get a grip!!, i am not crying my eyes out over the number of episodes, yes it would be nice if we had more episodes, but can you imagine the drop off in quality etc if the beeb churned Dr Who out every 5 mins!?

Then we would get the same self entitled whiners moan about the frequency and bang on about the good old days where there was less episodes but better stories/effects blah blah.

Honestly sometimes so called "fans" dont do themselves any favours
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