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The biggest, most unresolvable River Song plot hole...


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Old 27-04-2013, 05:25
qui
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Silence in the Library:

RIVER: "Okay, shall we do diaries, then? Where are we this time? Er, going by your face, I'd say it's early days for you, yeah? So, er, crash of the Byzantium. Have we done that yet? Obviously ringing no bells. Right. Oh, picnic at Asgard. Have we done Asgard yet? Obviously not. Blimey, very early days, then. Whoo, life with a time traveller. Never knew it could be such hard work. Look at you. Oh, you're young."

Presumably River would not have anything n her diary she'd not experienced, and we know she experienced the Crash of the Byzantium with Doc 11.

We've never even seen another encounter between her and Doc 10, which is not such a problem considering that she was given drawings of other faces she might encounter, and that there are periods undocumented in televised 10 Who, e.g. His first encounter with Elizabeth I. But why would River misremember whether she'd faced down a whole legion of Weeping Angels with Doc 10 or Doc 11?
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Old 27-04-2013, 07:20
Steven_Dunne
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She may have faces but not the order so she might think 10 was 12 which then makes sense
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Old 27-04-2013, 07:35
SilenceWillFall
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Well, it was suggested back then that she had met several Doctors and Byzantium might have been a while ago for her already, so she might not have been sure which incarnation it was there.

Also, as Steven_Dunne says she probably had no idea which number 10 was. She seemed to assume that he was a future incarnation rather than a past one at the beginning, only later she realized how young he was (how young his eyes were) and realized he was a past one. (Which however doesn't fit with her meeting 10 offscreen several times as has been suggested by Moffat and co.). But in the end it's all wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.
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Old 27-04-2013, 07:37
Sara_Peplow
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There are a few continuity problems that may or may not be addressed.
She said "life as a time traveler never knew it would be such hard work". Well technically she didn't chose it. She was born into it. If Amy and Rory hadn't concieved her in the tardis durring their wedding night/honeymoon and everything. Can't help but feel she got a bad deal. Spent her childhood being brain washed in an orphanage. Spent years as an adult locked up for a "murder" she didn't commit. Finally after her body dies she is left trapped in a computor.
Hope her husband is nice to her when he sees her again.
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Old 27-04-2013, 07:55
Granny McSmith
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When Moffat wrote that he thought she would be having the Byzantium adventure with Ten,
It is unresolvable. Just something to be ignored, I think.
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Old 27-04-2013, 08:54
Fire Host
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When Moffat wrote that he thought she would be having the Byzantium adventure with Ten,
It is unresolvable. Just something to be ignored, I think.
Indeed. Unless I'm much mistaken, when Steven Moffat wrote Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, there was still a chance of getting Tennant to stay on for Series 5... which would've made River's comments make a bit more sense.

But yeah, I explain it away in my head by thinking she briefly imagines him to be a later incarnation. Doesn't really work, but oh well.
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Old 27-04-2013, 08:54
tomwozhere
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I already made a thread about this a while ago and that really didn't turn out very well.
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Old 27-04-2013, 08:57
SilenceWillFall
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The way the character is written just makes it impossible to make EVERYTHING fit in without any plot holes. Unless you can predict the future and therefore know when an actor will decide to leave DW.
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:05
qui
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She may have faces but not the order so she might think 10 was 12 which then makes sense
But not remembering that she'd encountered the crash of Byzantium with 11?
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:10
qui
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Well, it was suggested back then that she had met several Doctors and Byzantium might have been a while ago for her already, so she might not have been sure which incarnation it was there.

Also, as Steven_Dunne says she probably had no idea which number 10 was. She seemed to assume that he was a future incarnation rather than a past one at the beginning, only later she realized how young he was (how young his eyes were) and realized he was a past one. (Which however doesn't fit with her meeting 10 offscreen several times as has been suggested by Moffat and co.). But in the end it's all wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.
I can buy her not having known the order of the doctors who were made familiar to her. But again, in her personal timeline she knew that she was at Byzantium with 11.
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:12
qui
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Indeed. Unless I'm much mistaken, when Steven Moffat wrote Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, there was still a chance of getting Tennant to stay on for Series 5... which would've made River's comments make a bit more sense.

But yeah, I explain it away in my head by thinking she briefly imagines him to be a later incarnation. Doesn't really work, but oh well.
I guess I've no choice but to give that a shot...
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:14
qui
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I already made a thread about this a while ago and that really didn't turn out very well.
I'm still new to this forum and am foolhardy yet.
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:25
tomwozhere
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I'm still new to this forum and am foolhardy yet.
It's ok I just think you should probably expect Moffat/River/NewWho bashers to post some horrible stuff about how the show is awful now and stuff. I had a ridiculous amount of posters coming up with more plot whole trying to make Moffat's Who look awful. So you might have to ignore some people, unless you agree with them
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Old 27-04-2013, 09:38
GDK
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The River in the Library is the oldest we've seen so far. As far as we know.

If she is in the 50th AND it is a true multi-Doctor AND memory loss is used to explain how 11 doesn't remember the events from when he experienced them as 10...

It's possible that memory tampering has side effects on other existing memories. We've already seen several indications the Doctor's memory is not what it was.

Not remembering the Great Intelligence properly and not remembering the umbrella stand in the TARDIS are two examples.

Perhaps the 50th has already happened from 11's PoV and 11 was plucked out of his timeline to join 10 in an adventure...
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Old 27-04-2013, 10:16
Koquillion
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I always go with Sara Peplows take on the River/Doctor Scenario. It is a romance and love don't make sense! Try and rationalize it and it will die!

Feel I must add that I am being genuine towards Sara, not putting her down. There was a time when Sara's whimsical and endearingly bonkers rambles on River were the only thing worth reading on this site!! OP should look some of them up for a completely different way to perceive the whole arc. Part of me can't wait for a day when everything does truly 'lead to the library' and Sara can give a big 'told you so' to some of her regular detractors!

Feel I must add that I am not having a go at Sara's detractors before I start an argument!

I for one am glad to see that someone out there really feels and cares for River and can see past the plot holes to the heart of the story...keep it up Peps!
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Old 27-04-2013, 10:23
ea91
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But not remembering that she'd encountered the crash of Byzantium with 11?
That's why she was asking. He said no. Moving on.
It would all make sense to me if she meets 12 (preferably not witnessing the regeneration). That way, it would make sense to ask another Doctor if he remembers the Byzantium. If her entire relationship is with 11 (as foolishly implied in the series 6 DVD extra), then he either remembers all their adventures or not, no need to check diaries.
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:08
FATCHOPS
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I think Moffat will show us the last meeting before River goes to the library before he leaves as show runner. For me that meeting is the end of the River Song story. And I think it could happen this year.
The way I've rationalised the "plot holes" in River's story, with the Byzantium being the first one I spotted, is when River sees the Doctor she sees the person, not the number. And if she sees them out of order and has met him numerous times why would she bother trying. She syncs diaries to avoid spoilers.
The other thing I've always believed is when they are talking in the library about the last time they met before the library he turned up with 'a haircut' I've always thought does she mean the first time she meets a new regeneration?
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:22
JohnnyForget
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Just because we only saw one encounter between River Song and Ten it doesn't mean that they didn't meet off screen a few times after that (from Ten's point of view).

I also like to think that River Song has met several future Doctors, and it could be one of them whom she penultimately sees before going to the library. It doesn't necessarily have to be Eleven. In fact, I'm rather hoping it isn't.
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:27
ea91
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I also like to think that River Song has met several future Doctors, and it could be one of them who she penultimately sees before going to the library. It doesn't necessarily have to be Eleven. In fact, I'm rather hoping it isn't.
Same. I don't see Alex Kingston still doing the role in around 5 years, but I am holding out hope that she will meet 12 and they'll have a proper husband-wife relationship, perhaps one where they aren't all over each other but start to bicker.
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:29
GDK
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I think Moffat will show us the last meeting before River goes to the library before he leaves as show runner. For me that meeting is the end of the River Song story. And I think it could happen this year.[snip]
We've sorta already seen the lead up to that in the extra bits on the DVD and BD boxed sets.

I think they should be considered canon and I hope they're not going to be contradicted by anything shown in the series itself.
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:35
ea91
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I think they should be considered canon and I hope they're not going to be contradicted by anything shown in the series itself.
Why? You're that eager to see the back of River?
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Old 27-04-2013, 11:58
Corwin
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Why? You're that eager to see the back of River?
Even if her last meeting with the Doctor is with 11 as (possibly) seen on the DVDs there is nothing to suggest that she never meets Doc 12 or 13 or 92.


She doesn't meet the Doctor in order, it is pretty clear though that Doc 11 is her Main Doctor.
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Old 27-04-2013, 14:05
dantay24uk
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I think the 11th Doctor is her first, the 10th is her last. Anything can happen in between. But as has already been said, she doesn't see a number, she just sees a face, a face at first she doesn't recognize so can't identify what Doctor she is speaking to.
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Old 27-04-2013, 14:29
SilenceWillFall
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The thing about the "last" meeting between River and the Doctor that we have seen in Night and the Doctor is that while it has been strongly sugested that it was THE time going to Darillium, it was never 100% confirmed that the two of them only went to Darillium that one time before River went to the Library. We only got "spoilers" from the future 11. So they could easily work around that.
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Old 27-04-2013, 14:32
LeslieGrufford
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Indeed. Unless I'm much mistaken, when Steven Moffat wrote Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, there was still a chance of getting Tennant to stay on for Series 5... which would've made River's comments make a bit more sense.

But yeah, I explain it away in my head by thinking she briefly imagines him to be a later incarnation. Doesn't really work, but oh well.
I'm pretty sure I read an interview were Moffat said he wrote River as a one off just based on the premise what if the Doctor met someone from his future. At this stage there was no intention to bring her back and definitely no season 5 plan in place.
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