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Old 28-04-2013, 19:31
alfster
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I'm not saying Doctor Who is crap and the episode will suck i'm just questioning the inclusion of 2 pointless character that will take away from the main plot being the return of the cybermen

SPOILERS!!!!!

Any chance we could try not to give away plot points of episodes to come in non-specific episode threads...I studiously avoid any spoilers any 'NEXT WEEK' stuff so I can go into an episode clean of any pre-conceived ideas or opinion (which is probably why I thought Prometheus wasn't too bad.

And how the hell do you know they are pointless when ..YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE *&*$&^$ EPISODE?
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:32
DiscoP
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Exactly. I genuinely disliked this weeks episode, but for explaining why and examining its shortcomings, I have been labelled a troll!

It's ridiculous. I've found some episodes in this series really good eg last week's and the very first ep a while ago in which Clara/Oswin turned out to be a dalek. Excellent stuff.

People need to stop obsessing about what other people think of the show, because it just comes across as rather insecure yearning for consensus, as if they require people to agree with them for validation.

Just say what you think about the show - that's all we ought to do really. If someone else has a positive opinion I don't make a judgement on them. I may point out why I disagree, but I try not to make it personal unless they personally attack me.
All I can say, as someone who has enjoyed all of the episodes of series 7b I find it a little depressing to come and see so many negative posts.

Of course, some people have valid criticisms, and not everyone will like the same things but frankly some of the posts and opinions of late have been so bizarre that it's genuinely hard to work out if they are being serious or not. It feels to me at least that some people are using any reason just to kick it.

I've watched Rings of thingy twice now and I honestly can't tell what was so bad about that episode that it deserved such strong reactions.

Ironically, the episode that I enjoyed least of all was Hide. I came on here after that, expecting to see a backlash of negativity and was pleasantly surprised at home positive people were about it.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:35
nebogipfel
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What's your take on series 7b getting more negative criticism than previous series Nebo? Perhaps it was always like this when a series is being broadcast and I am remembering things incorrectly. I mean forums and twitter etc have been with us for a while now...
I don't really know. I only started reading about Doctor Who online in 2010 so only know Moffat series discussed here. There was moaning about series five, as I recall. Plenty of moaning about series six. Some of it from me. (constructive, honest ).

I think I have noticed a bit more moaning generally but put it down to:
- normal moaning about episode quality
- moaning about what will or won't be in the 50th
- moaning about the lack of episodes
- moaning about the poor quality PR about scheduling.
- moaning about all the people moaning.

So maybe this year there is simply more to fret and moan about, but only a small bit of that is moaning about episodes. Some of the people disgusted about the 50th are spilling their disgust into episode reviews.

Maybe. I've no idea. but have an opinion all the same.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:37
WelshNige
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All I can say, as someone who has enjoyed all of the episodes of series 7b I find it a little depressing to come and see so many negative posts.

Of course, some people have valid criticisms, and not everyone will like the same things but frankly some of the posts and opinions of late have been so bizarre that it's genuinely hard to work out if they are being serious or not. It feels to me at least that some people are using any reason just to kick it.

I've watched Rings of thingy twice now and I honestly can't tell what was so bad about that episode that it deserved such strong reactions.

Ironically, the episode that I enjoyed least of all was Hide. I came on here after that, expecting to see a backlash of negativity and was pleasantly surprised at home positive people were about it.
But why is other people not liking an episode depressing to you, you've just said that you've enjoyed it, surely that's all that matters.

It comes back to my belief that some posters on here take criticism of the show personally, as if by having a go at a show they liked they are having a go at them.

I really don't understand this attitude at all.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:41
WelshNige
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I don't really know. I only started reading about Doctor Who online in 2010 so only know Moffat series discussed here. There was moaning about series five, as I recall. Plenty of moaning about series six. Some of it from me. (constructive, honest ).

I think I have noticed a bit more moaning generally but put it down to:
- normal moaning about episode quality
- moaning about what will or won't be in the 50th
- moaning about the lack of episodes
- moaning about the poor quality PR about scheduling.
- moaning about all the people moaning.

So maybe this year there is simply more to fret and moan about, but only a small bit of that is moaning about episodes. Some of the people disgusted about the 50th are spilling their disgust into episode reviews.

Maybe. I've no idea. but have an opinion all the same.
Believe me, the RTD era got just as much criticism on here as SM's is getting now.

And why would it be any different, there is no such thing as a perfect television episode that every viewer will enjoy equally, there will always be polarised views.

Perhaps if people just accepted that and stopped trying to question anyone with an opposing view to their own this forum would be far less antagonistic???
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:42
DiscoP
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But why is other people not liking an episode depressing to you, you've just said that you've enjoyed it, surely that's all that matters.

It comes back to my belief that some posters on here take criticism of the show personally, as if by having a go at a show they liked they are having a go at them.

I really don't understand this attitude at all.
Maybe you're right. Maybe I do take it too personally. All I can say is that it's a show that I care a lot about, enough to go to online forums and post comments about which I hardly ever do for other shows. It's a show that I grew up with, it's a show that I can see all involved tries to make it the best that they can so it's sad to see so many other people not enjoying it.

I dunno. Maybe that makes me strange. I don't care. I am me.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:46
alfster
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People need to stop obsessing about what other people think of the show, because it just comes across as rather insecure yearning for consensus, as if they require people to agree with them for validation.

Just say what you think about the show - that's all we ought to do really. If someone else has a positive opinion I don't make a judgement on them. I may point out why I disagree, but I try not to make it personal unless they personally attack me.
I haven't seen your posts but there comes a point when people fisk every single plot point in a show to the point that an episode is deconstructed to nothing...when 99.9% of us couldn't even come close to creating what is on screen year after year.

I was never a huge fan of RTDs overall stuff finding it too soap opera-y and the inclusion of Catherine Tate but on the whole I a) didn't fisk an episode to death...b) could see I would never be able to do the stuff that RTD created (I loved Second Coming and The Sarah Jane Adventures) c) stopped watching at some point but watched the last few of the Donna series (I think it was Turn Left I stopped watching) d) could see why it appealed to certain parts of the viewership and e) can see why part of that viewership doesn't like Moffat's stewardship (which I absolutely love).

It is not that people can't stand people not liking the Moffat era it is the total destruction that some people do of all episodes (and that happened in the RTD era as well).

It is just far too easy to pour on the criticism without realising how damn difficult it is to create such stuff. RTD had his vision which I wasn't overly keen on but it worked and there was some amazing stuff there, Moffat has another vision harking more to the older Who and I love that. Some balance and almost humanity in realising the creators of these series are just human not super-humans andit is just TV.

As for RTD I thought he nailed The Sarah Jane Adventures so much that I wish he had made the Dr Who series with that same feel...but he didn't. There wasn;t much of the RTD series that was totally dire just that I switched off at a certain point because I just didn't lock into it and that was only about 3 episodes.

I think some people need to sit back and realise the pressure that creating TV brings, the shear creativeness that everyone involved has and that very soon there will be a new showrunner...that many will loath and many will love.

It will actually be good to get away from the RTD vs Moffat feel and hopefully the next show runner will show that it isn't easy creating something like Dr Who especially with the format it has these days.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:48
WelshNige
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Maybe you're right. Maybe I do take it too personally. All I can say is that it's a show that I care a lot about, enough to go to online forums and post comments about which I hardly ever do for other shows. It's a show that I grew up with, it's a show that I can see all involved tries to make it the best that they can so it's sad to see so many other people not enjoying it.

I dunno. Maybe that makes me strange. I don't care. I am me.
I'm not having a go at you, sorry if it came across like that.

Taking your Rings example, I too loved that episode, but it quickly became apparent on here that lots felt differently, but that didn't spoil my own enjoyment, I just treat it like water off a duck's back.

It's the same when posters rave on here about an episode I didn't personally enjoy, I don't feel the need to question why they liked it so much, it's easier just to accept that we're all different and we all like different things.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:49
nebogipfel
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Exactly. I genuinely disliked this weeks episode, but for explaining why and examining its shortcomings, I have been labelled a troll!

It's ridiculous. I've found some episodes in this series really good eg last week's and the very first ep a while ago in which Clara/Oswin turned out to be a dalek. Excellent stuff.

People need to stop obsessing about what other people think of the show, because it just comes across as rather insecure yearning for consensus, as if they require people to agree with them for validation.

Just say what you think about the show - that's all we ought to do really. If someone else has a positive opinion I don't make a judgement on them. I may point out why I disagree, but I try not to make it personal unless they personally attack me.
You were called a troll? seems unfair. I thought we had a polite enough chat, even though we disagreed.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:51
Banks246
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It's why people imagine that life was wonderful in Victorian days. Blithely ignoring the disease, grinding poverty and giant cyberkings stomping around.
Thank you for this, made me chuckle.
so you're saying things used to be better ?
Nope, I just think our society has turned into a bunch of over negative moaners.

Or maybe as someone else pointed out, with the rise of internet forums and twitter we just have a better platform to hear peoples moaning.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:54
WelshNige
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I haven't seen your posts but there comes a point when people fisk every single plot point in a show to the point that an episode is deconstructed to nothing...when 99.9% of us couldn't even come close to creating what is on screen year after year.

I was never a huge fan of RTDs overall stuff finding it too soap opera-y and the inclusion of Catherine Tate but on the whole I a) didn't fisk an episode to death...b) could see I would never be able to do the stuff that RTD created (I loved Second Coming and The Sarah Jane Adventures) c) stopped watching at some point but watched the last few of the Donna series (I think it was Turn Left I stopped watching) d) could see why it appealed to certain parts of the viewership and e) can see why part of that viewership doesn't like Moffat's stewardship (which I absolutely love).

It is not that people can't stand people not liking the Moffat era it is the total destruction that some people do of all episodes (and that happened in the RTD era as well).

It is just far too easy to pour on the criticism without realising how damn difficult it is to create such stuff. RTD had his vision which I wasn't overly keen on but it worked and there was some amazing stuff there, Moffat has another vision harking more to the older Who and I love that. Some balance and almost humanity in realising the creators of these series are just human not super-humans andit is just TV.

As for RTD I thought he nailed The Sarah Jane Adventures so much that I wish he had made the Dr Who series with that same feel...but he didn't. There wasn;t much of the RTD series that was totally dire just that I switched off at a certain point because I just didn't lock into it and that was only about 3 episodes.

I think some people need to sit back and realise the pressure that creating TV brings, the shear creativeness that everyone involved has and that very soon there will be a new showrunner...that many will loath and many will love.

It will actually be good to get away from the RTD vs Moffat feel and hopefully the next show runner will show that it isn't easy creating something like Dr Who especially with the format it has these days.
Thing is making television programmes is their job, if people stopped criticising an episode they didn't like just because of the amount of work involved then they would be doing the show and indeed the show runners a disservice, as it would imply that the whole of the viewing public were happy with the show, which is obviously not the case.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:58
performingmonk
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The negativity is, currently, warranted! The show has had far too many 'meh' episodes in a row. Also, Moffat has been on a downward spiral as producer ever since the end of series 5. Too much of series 6 alienated a general audience with it's smug tone and stupid plots. Look at 'A Good Man Goes To War', 'Let's Kill Hitler' and 'Wedding of River Song', so messy... What's infuriating is he then wrote a top episode in 'Asylum of the Daleks' that just about anyone could love.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:02
DiscoP
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I'm not having a go at you, sorry if it came across like that.

Taking your Rings example, I too loved that episode, but it quickly became apparent on here that lots felt differently, but that didn't spoil my own enjoyment, I just treat it like water off a duck's back.

It's the same when posters rave on here about an episode I didn't personally enjoy, I don't feel the need to question why they liked it so much, it's easier just to accept that we're all different and we all like different things.
No it's cool

But when you saw that so many other people were so unhappy about Rings, did it make you question your enjoyment of it? It did me. It made me think, what is it that everyone else is seeing that I'm not? Am I willing to watch any old rubbish and think it's good if it's called Doctor Who? Do I have no standards or taste anymore?

Like I say, it just confused me. Obviously there are always exceptions but broadly speaking in classic Who most people agree that Caves of Androzani is a great story and The Twin Dilemma is an awful story for example. It's easy to see why that would be the general consensus but it just make me feel uneasy about my own personal tastes when I see such strong reactions to stories that seem perfectly fine to me.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:08
WelshNige
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No it's cool

But when you saw that so many other people were so unhappy about Rings, did it make you question your enjoyment of it? It did me. It made me think, what is it that everyone else is seeing that I'm not? Am I willing to watch any old rubbish and think it's good if it's called Doctor Who? Do I have no standards or taste anymore?

Like I say, it just confused me. Obviously there are always exceptions but broadly speaking in classic Who most people agree that Caves of Androzani is a great story and The Twin Dilemma is an awful story for example. It's easy to see why that would be the general consensus but it just make me feel uneasy about my own personal tastes when I see such strong reactions to stories that seem perfectly fine to me.
No I must admit it doesn't bother me at all, I just let it go over my head.

It's interesting you mention Androzani, as I think it's one of, if not the most overrated stories in Who history, to me it's a bog standard fifth Doctor romp and I just don't understand the adulation in which it's held.

Having said that, I know full well that there are episodes that I adore that many dislike but such is life, it's not worth letting others opinions spoil your enjoyment of any television show....
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:24
bigheather
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It comes back to my belief that some posters on here take criticism of the show personally, as if by having a go at a show they liked they are having a go at them.

I really don't understand this attitude at all.
That is a problem common to all types of forums. By their very nature, they encourage people to express their personal opinions with the assumption that other people will be interested in reading them. When that view is questioned or disagreed with, or even when someone else posts a contrary opinion, it can be seem like a direct personal challenge to some people.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:29
moonburn
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I truly sound like a broken record
If Moffat didn't watch last night and think "why the hell did we cast these three and main characters"
then there's a serious problem.
I loved everything else about last night but like any drama if you have very bad actors in the story its going to take something away from the show.

Its like Rings a few weeks ago a brilliant story was forming with Clara and her parents and Dr.
IMHO it was done wrong way around a quick story of why Clara used the leaf and a story all about that and how the doctor kept looking into her life for answers. Again last week the story was fine but added that part on the end that truly came across as an afterthought to makeup time.

everyone knows even from the reboot of 2005 there will be some stinkers. there seems to be some sloppy errors Casting choices starting to become more noticeable its something moffat should be stopping even before one inch of it is recorded.

Far from sacking anyone what going on in production that's allowed some pretty iffy storylines and rewriting certain aspects because it doesn't fit this current story. And some terrible actors to make the show?Are budget cuts starting to affect the high quality that's been associated since the 2005 reboot?
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:32
alfster
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The negativity is, currently, warranted! The show has had far too many 'meh' episodes in a row.
The problem there is that Series 7B for me and many others has been superb, apart from 'Rings' which many think was superb also.

The Moffat series for me has been consistently good with no meh episodes in a row.

There are only fewer RTD era episodes I would rewatch than there are Moffat's. In fact I could name the RTD ones I would watch and the Moffat ones I would watch as there are so few of each ones.

However, I can see why people lap up the RTD ones.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:35
nebogipfel
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Believe me, the RTD era got just as much criticism on here as SM's is getting now.

And why would it be any different, there is no such thing as a perfect television episode that every viewer will enjoy equally, there will always be polarised views.

Perhaps if people just accepted that and stopped trying to question anyone with an opposing view to their own this forum would be far less antagonistic???
I have in the past been called an uncritical fanboi apologist in one thread while in another called a moaning hater. In both threads I thought I had expressed reasonable opinions in a fair way. But the people slating me didn't seem like nice or respectful.people to me, so I didn't take it personally. But I did politely stand my ground.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:40
Midnight Moggy
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"but it is not very hard to find a general trend of increasing negativity since Series 5."

Could that be because fewer people are enjoying it as much? This guy seems to want to blame everything but the show itself because he is still enjoying every episode - he thinks Rings was a good episode FFS - whilst other people are not. Are we not allowed to watch Dr Who any more unless we think EVERY episode is AMAZING? Are we not allowed to discuss plot holes, bad acting, or other issues we had with an episode?
I agree with this.

What a stupid article. People are entitled to be as positive or negative as they like about Dr Who, or any other TV show for that matter.

Plenty of people appear to think Dr Who is not quite so good at the moment. For those that think it's still brilliant that's great, but don't try and force your views on those of us that don't agree with you.

I can't stand this awful "everything must be positive and optimistic" attitude both in forums like this and in real life. Because actually everything isn't wonderful all the time, and pretending that it is doesn't change that fact.

Also, the writer of that article seems to think that if you say that Dr Who is not so great at the moment, that means the programme is crumbling, no hope etc. It doesn't mean that at all, it just means that perhaps the show is going through a low point currently, and may well get better in the future.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:42
Shawn_Lunn
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I think criticism is fine here and there when it's needed but when certain fans state their own opinions as though they were hardcore facts, then it can be much at times.

Something's clearly not right behind the scenes though. That sadly is becoming patently obvious but the episodes themselves have been largely enjoyable and I'm liking Clara as a companion.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:47
moonburn
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The problem there is that Series 7B for me and many others has been superb, apart from 'Rings' which many think was superb also.

The Moffat series for me has been consistently good with no meh episodes in a row.

There are only fewer RTD era episodes I would rewatch than there are Moffat's. In fact I could name the RTD ones I would watch and the Moffat ones I would watch as there are so few of each ones.

However, I can see why people lap up the RTD ones.
been seeing them again on Watch and yep RTD laid everything out on the table and all the viewer had to do was tune in.

Moffats got a serious problem because he only wrote a very selective eps in the RTD time expectations of his standards are very high so that's already putting massive amounts of pressure on the guy.
coupled with that now the showrunner also massive amount of pressure with Sherlock that's a hit here and worldwide.

RTD apparently warned him about the negative feedback he would get has this allowed maybe a degree of 2nd thinking to creep in?

The guy still has magic because the final episode with Rory and Amy it makes me cry all the time and that's very hard thing I was bloody glad to see rose go because the legacy she left buggered up for the next companion with them trying to makeout Martha was madly in love with him also.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:48
saladfingers81
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No I must admit it doesn't bother me at all, I just let it go over my head.

It's interesting you mention Androzani, as I think it's one of, if not the most overrated stories in Who history, to me it's a bog standard fifth Doctor romp and I just don't understand the adulation in which it's held.

Having said that, I know full well that there are episodes that I adore that many dislike but such is life, it's not worth letting others opinions spoil your enjoyment of any television show....
As I've said before Nige I think its more the tone of some of the criticism that bothers people. Its certainly what bothers me most. Someone like yourself who has honest and mixed views on the program along with other people is good. Not everyone is going to like the same things and its the beauty of the program that one person thinks Love and Monsters is a crime against humanity whereas I think its a work of genius and vice versa.

But do you not think from some sections of 'fandom' there is an unconstructive and relentless negativity that can be quite corrosive? Its almost as if some people go into each episode expecting the worst and looking for things to confirm their preconceptions.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:54
saladfingers81
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I agree with this.

What a stupid article. People are entitled to be as positive or negative as they like about Dr Who, or any other TV show for that matter.

Plenty of people appear to think Dr Who is not quite so good at the moment. For those that think it's still brilliant that's great, but don't try and force your views on those of us that don't agree with you.

I can't stand this awful "everything must be positive and optimistic" attitude both in forums like this and in real life. Because actually everything isn't wonderful all the time, and pretending that it is doesn't change that fact.

Also, the writer of that article seems to think that if you say that Dr Who is not so great at the moment, that means the programme is crumbling, no hope etc. It doesn't mean that at all, it just means that perhaps the show is going through a low point currently, and may well get better in the future.
Or maybe an individual opinion is just that and means nothing in the wider context of the shows popularity? In the same way as what you view as over positivity is irksome I find the 'sky is falling' attitude of some people just because they didn't like it to be equally dispiriting. And quite often those that don't like the show currently try and give their personal view some credence with sweeping remarks about 'what is going wrong with DW?'. Based on the wider evidence there is nothing wrong with the show. Some people like it. Some people don't. Its ever been thus. But it is dishonest and false to try and paint a picture of late eighties style disaster as the viewing figures, the AI, the general feedback on polls,the reviews and the critical response does not support that.

Also if it is any group who try and 'force their views down the throats of everyone else it certainly isn't those that like the program...they seem happy to post in episode threads and similar. It is the negative ones who choose to start their own threads day in day out to get maximum attention for their view. And so in turn those that disagree will of course challenge those opinions if they don't agree. But I find the malcontents are more forthright, loud and aggressive in the vehemence of their views.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:56
DiscoP
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As I've said before Nige I think its more the tone of some of the criticism that bothers people. Its certainly what bothers me most. Someone like yourself who has honest and mixed views on the program along with other people is good. Not everyone is going to like the same things and its the beauty of the program that one person thinks Love and Monsters is a crime against humanity whereas I think its a work of genius and vice versa.

But do you not think from some sections of 'fandom' there is an unconstructive and relentless negativity that can be quite corrosive? Its almost as if some people go into each episode expecting the worst and looking for things to confirm their preconceptions.
There also seem to be a few people who watch it week in, week out and never seem to like it. I find that quite difficult to get my head around as well. I don't much care for a Question of Sport, never have, never will. My solution to the problem is quite simple. I don't watch it. It wouldn't occur me to watch it and then find the Question of Sport forum and post, blimey what a load of old rubbish that was.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:57
WelshNige
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As I've said before Nige I think its more the tone of some of the criticism that bothers people. Its certainly what bothers me most. Someone like yourself who has honest and mixed views on the program along with other people is good. Not everyone is going to like the same things and its the beauty of the program that one person thinks Love and Monsters is a crime against humanity whereas I think its a work of genius and vice versa.

But do you not think from some sections of 'fandom' there is an unconstructive and relentless negativity that can be quite corrosive? Its almost as if some people go into each episode expecting the worst and looking for things to confirm their preconceptions.

I do think you're BIB is probably right.

I remember a poster on here (now banned but I'm sure many will know who I'm talking about) who hated everything about the RTD era of Who, and I mean everything. Yes he's entitled to that view, but he kept on posting the same criticisms over and over and over again, until thread after thread become like open warfare and ended up being locked.

It eventually became too much for me and I put the guy on ignore, it was the best thing I ever did on here as my enjoyment of the forum improved immediately. Perhaps others could consider the same with posters they find particularly annoying, as by not viewing their posts it might cut down on the arguements that seem to be blighting the forum at the moment.
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