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Old 28-04-2013, 20:57
Welsh-lad
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I haven't seen your posts but there comes a point when people fisk every single plot point in a show to the point that an episode is deconstructed to nothing...when 99.9% of us couldn't even come close to creating what is on screen year after year.

I think some people need to sit back and realise the pressure that creating TV brings, the shear creativeness that everyone involved has and that very soon there will be a new showrunner...that many will loath and many will love.s.
I agree it is a huge creative undertaking, but it still needs to stand up to scrutiny. Piranha 3 must have been a huge job to pull off, actors, writers, crew etc, but it's still a crap film.

If you get a bad meal in a restaurant and complain, the waitress doesn't come over to tell you you ought to be more grateful because a lot of preparation and care went into making the meal and if you can do better then get in the kitchen!

We're all entitled to an opinion. I would just ignore the negativity you find irritating and just point out the good points as you see them. Someone might well go "Ooooh yes, I hadn't thought of that!"
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:59
saladfingers81
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And as I've said before I am not some deluded super blinkered fan boy. I could write an essay on why I despise the series Six story arc that would bore most people to death.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:05
SilenceWillFall
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I think however that there are two types of negativity. I think that most people who dislike the episodes post into the episodes threads just like the people who like them and post valid reasons why they dislike them and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, because that is their opinion. What I find irritating is the posters who are already going into the episode with a negative opinion without watching it and post threads about it (like the two about Neil Gaiman's episode), people who post their opinions as facts (this ofc is done both with positive and negative opinion), people who just plain ignore facts such as the ratings/AI etc. and people who pretend that the show has sometimes in the past been some kind of flawless work without any of the flaws that it has today.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:08
jcafcw
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Charlie Brooker has ironically answered the question very eloquently for us.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...harlie-brooker

In other words posting negative comments, or indeed any comment, is a plea for other people to validate your existence.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:15
DiscoP
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Charlie Brooker has ironically answered the question very eloquently for us.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...harlie-brooker

In other words posting negative comments, or indeed any comment, is a plea for other people to validate your existence.
Beep!
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:21
SilenceWillFall
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Beep Beep!
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:26
moonburn
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Charlie Brooker has ironically answered the question very eloquently for us.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...harlie-brooker

In other words posting negative comments, or indeed any comment, is a plea for other people to validate your existence.
In the case of DW thanks to the BBC showing no show is safe when the going got tough its left fans with a deep seated terror what if they did the same thing again.Any sigh of perceived weakness appearing triggers the fear.

To give you an example the new studios in Cardiff for months that's all the local news reported that merlin would have this amazing new home with scope for bigger sets and then it was gone.

the onslaught MS got as the doctor was so bad at the start because clearly a lot of DT's fans weren't DW fans they were pissed off he left and wanted him back,That's the main reason I didn't want him back for the 50th Matts been an amazing actor and he managed to take the role of the doctor in a new direction after a very strong actor left the role.

sorry if I' not making much sense tonight I had an operation on Thursday and currently in hospital stoned on painkillers!!
but hope people get what im trying to convey.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:31
nebogipfel
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I liked it when someone said the show was "shit" and they should call it "Shaturday" and when people reacted that he hated it when people criticised him for making "mildly disparaging" comments. . Hilarious. He wasn't trolling, either. Just seems to really not like the show but doesn't realise that his way of talking about it is bound to wind people up. Of course, I was accused of ganging up on him when I tried to talk to him about it.

Sometimes the people who like dishing out the blunt and rude remarks have a very thin skin themselves.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:32
Jules 1
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Slightly off track here, but generally internet forums are getting more and more negative as tine goes on.

Partly due to increased expectation but partly due to people seeking a reaction, I am not saying that anyone on here is in the 2nd category, but some posting during the episode are. Because Doctor Who is such a cult show, and one with such longevity, people who genuinely loved the show under RTD may not feel the same now, but instead of not watching as would happen with normal shows, these people still watch it and still want to enjoy it, and I can understand why this may disappoint.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:54
Midnight Moggy
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Or maybe an individual opinion is just that and means nothing in the wider context of the shows popularity? In the same way as what you view as over positivity is irksome I find the 'sky is falling' attitude of some people just because they didn't like it to be equally dispiriting. And quite often those that don't like the show currently try and give their personal view some credence with sweeping remarks about 'what is going wrong with DW?'. Based on the wider evidence there is nothing wrong with the show. Some people like it. Some people don't. Its ever been thus. But it is dishonest and false to try and paint a picture of late eighties style disaster as the viewing figures, the AI, the general feedback on polls,the reviews and the critical response does not support that.

Also if it is any group who try and 'force their views down the throats of everyone else it certainly isn't those that like the program...they seem happy to post in episode threads and similar. It is the negative ones who choose to start their own threads day in day out to get maximum attention for their view. And so in turn those that disagree will of course challenge those opinions if they don't agree. But I find the malcontents are more forthright, loud and aggressive in the vehemence of their views.
It's not one individual opinion though is it? It's quite a large number of people saying they are not enjoying the show at the moment.

And the point I was making is that people are free to be as positive or negative as they like. We should not be told that as fans of the show we really ought to be more positive, which is basically what the writer of that article is doing.
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:06
DiscoP
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It's not one individual opinion though is it? It's quite a large number of people saying they are not enjoying the show at the moment.

And the point I was making is that people are free to be as positive or negative as they like. We should not be told that as fans of the show we really ought to be more positive, which is basically what the writer of that article is doing.
It's strange, because much like an episode of Doctor Who these days, it seems that I took something else from the article that others didn't.

I saw the article as an attempt to understand why there is such a strong critical response to Doctor Who at the moment. All he was saying at the end was that if you approached the episode in a different light then you may actually enjoy it. He wasn't denying anyone's right be negative.

At least that's how I read it...
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:43
SJB 2007
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Ah. Entropy. I shall have to re-watch Logopolis
I still don't really understand that story... Something about opening CVE in other universes, so that our universe doesn't collapse.... I'm i right?
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:49
DiscoP
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I still don't really understand that story... Something about opening CVE in other universes, so that our universe doesn't collapse.... I'm i right?
To be honest I don't think I fully understand it either But I like it because we get to see the Cloister room and hear the cloister bell for the first time. (see how easily pleased I am? )
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Old 28-04-2013, 23:02
SJB 2007
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To be honest I don't think I fully understand it either But I like it because we get to see the Cloister room and hear the cloister bell for the first time. (see how easily pleased I am? )
I like stuff like that too... It's Doctor Who history!

I like the atmosphere and feeling of that story.... The final end of Tom Baker as the Doctor

Hanging there on the Radio telescope... The flash backs... And then letting go, and falling to his death... And regenerating into Peter Davison...

Brilliant!
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Old 29-04-2013, 00:37
rua is god
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This has been bugging me recently, I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion, positive or negative. If someone wants to live their life expecting the worst out of every situation then that's their choice, I feel sorry for them but they have the right to do so. The issue I have with it is when they go out of their way to try and drag everyone down to that mindset or they try and make out they are speaking for everyone else. Your opinion solely belongs to you, everyone has the ability to speak and form their own opinion.

Regarding the negativity towards Who in general I think what is lacking here is the ability of a few negative people to see the bigger picture, the show is watched by millions upon millions of people each week, maybe a thousand or so go online to "discuss" it. It's the world we live in, I work in Customer Service and very rarely get customer's taking the time to contact us to say how good and pleasant the experience has been when you compare it to the people who contact us who had issues with their experience, it's the nature of the beast.

Why bother trying to be positive about it when the negative people go so far out of their way to prove your opinion is wrong and theirs is right (even though opinions tend to be subjective, no rights or wrongs). It's been taken past the stage of having a discussion and they see it as a debate where there are winners and losers. It's quite sad really.

There are negative aspects to the show definitely, but a normal and adjusted person would stop doing something they don't enjoy anymore. They seem to put themselves through the misery of watching the show just so they can go online and tell the people who do enjoy it how wrong they are to do so. It's a bit mental.
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Old 29-04-2013, 00:47
Karis
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There also seem to be a few people who watch it week in, week out and never seem to like it. I find that quite difficult to get my head around as well.
I'm one of them. I've not enjoyed it since SM took over... but I know lots of people are loving it (hell, some people loved John Carter).

The only difference between Doctor Who and other shows is that I've loved the show for so long, this is just a blip and it will pass. I did enjoy a few episodes last season but for me I've not had much enjoyment from the show in a good few years, but I, quite oddly, do derive some enjoyment from still posting about it on here.

I'd much rather be posting gushing praise as I really don't enjoy saying anything negative, but lately, the stories have been lazily constructed and poorly executed. That's just my personal opinion but I loved the RTD era (1st and 4th seasons) and I know a lot of people really didn't enjoy them.
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Old 29-04-2013, 14:45
neutralned
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. But I find the malcontents are more forthright, loud and aggressive in the vehemence of their views.
I think that's a pretty ironic quote to make when the original article was a plea for only shiny, happy people to post on Dr Who discussion boards, but I subscribe to the overall point that others are making above that criticism without a critique is also a waste - it doesn't add to discussion, for starters.

As others have said on these boards before, it would be a dull discussion if we all agreed. I don't think shutting down negative views is the way forward, or a topic that should be given any credence whatsoever - who will point out if the emperor has no clothes in that situation? We should be free to express an opinion that we did not enjoy an episode, or a story arc, and presenting reasons why should lead to a debate, which is part of what the boards are for. The issue most people seem to have with the negative posters is the implication that SOME of them make when they post, 'that if you don't feel the same way I did, there's something wrong with you.' Ironically that's exactly how I feel about the original article, just from the flipside. He is stating his opinion that all the episodes are great and the series is fab, as fact. Other people have different opinions, not for the reasons he states, but because they watched those episodes too and do not feel that way.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:12
TimCypher
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DW fandom has always been a bit of a negative force in the show's history, throughout all eras since it got itself organised.

It's hard to believe today, as it's regarded as a bit of a golden era for the show, that Philip Hinchcliffe's three years at the helm would have attracted such levels of criticism. But it did at the time, and that went right the way to the top of the DWAS.

DW fans are just passionate about the show, so, if they see something they don't like, or something they feel is inherently 'un-Doctor Who-ish', they complain.

The vast majority of the time, these complaints are well-intended, and are articulated in a constructive fashion.

But then, you get a subset of fans (mercifully, a very small number) who just take things too far. Call it a mental defect of whatever, but they just can't seem to sense where the line of human decency in the sand lies, and they start being very nasty and very abusive, particularly towards those involved in the show.

Those dark corners of fandom are best avoided...

Regards,

Cypher
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:15
daveyboy7472
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I'm one of them. I've not enjoyed it since SM took over... but I know lots of people are loving it (hell, some people loved John Carter).

The only difference between Doctor Who and other shows is that I've loved the show for so long, this is just a blip and it will pass. I did enjoy a few episodes last season but for me I've not had much enjoyment from the show in a good few years, but I, quite oddly, do derive some enjoyment from still posting about it on here.

I'd much rather be posting gushing praise as I really don't enjoy saying anything negative, but lately, the stories have been lazily constructed and poorly executed. That's just my personal opinion but I loved the RTD era (1st and 4th seasons) and I know a lot of people really didn't enjoy them.
The bits I've highlighted are exactly how I feel about the show. I've been watching since the 80's and when the bad times hit, like Season 24 for example, I always believed the good times would come back. It's generally the way I feel at present. I'm not really enjoying Moffat's Who as much as I did RTD's. For me personally the bad episodes outweigh the good whereas it was the other was round in the previous era. For people who ask why we keep watching it's because you live for the really good episode(which has happened) and you also know that another change in style will occur one day. That may be worse, it may be better but that's what Doctor Who is about, changing and reinventing itself every few years.

In some respects that aspect hasn't altered since Classic Who. Even watching the Classic Series there are Seasons and Era's(like the Exile Scenario) that I dislike and stories within Seasons I dislike as well. Not every sort of story suits me and it's much the same today but with Moffat's Who it's more extensive imo.

As for the forum I've noticed a big change in attitude since I joined three years ago. People argued and had huge rows about different things but there wasn't so much of the 'This show is great and everyone else is wrong.'(and vice versa!) attitude that has crept in over the last year or so. It's one of the reasons I've not been posting so much lately and just sticking to the Classic Series threads, few as they are. For some strange reason, people seem to be able to discuss Classic Who in a far more civil tone than the New Series, as shown in the threads I did last year. We disagreed, had differences of opinion as always but none of this I'm right and you're wrong malarkey.

I often wonder if this down to the New Series Fans who aren't used to the many changes in style that used to occur in the old Series and expect it to stay the same all the time. Hence all the many heated debates that occur and nastiness that creeps in sometimes.

People really just need to accept that other Posters have different opinions. As someone has said already, if we all agreed on everything it would be a boring forum.

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Old 29-04-2013, 15:20
DiscoP
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I think that's a pretty ironic quote to make when the original article was a plea for only shiny, happy people to post on Dr Who discussion boards, but I subscribe to the overall point that others are making above that criticism without a critique is also a waste - it doesn't add to discussion, for starters.

As others have said on these boards before, it would be a dull discussion if we all agreed. I don't think shutting down negative views is the way forward, or a topic that should be given any credence whatsoever - who will point out if the emperor has no clothes in that situation? We should be free to express an opinion that we did not enjoy an episode, or a story arc, and presenting reasons why should lead to a debate, which is part of what the boards are for. The issue most people seem to have with the negative posters is the implication that SOME of them make when they post, 'that if you don't feel the same way I did, there's something wrong with you.' Ironically that's exactly how I feel about the original article, just from the flipside. He is stating his opinion that all the episodes are great and the series is fab, as fact. Other people have different opinions, not for the reasons he states, but because they watched those episodes too and do not feel that way.
My take on the article was quite different. I don't think the author was saying only positive comments are allowed, he was wondering why there is such a lot of negative criticism at the moment. If you try to look at it beyond the "why don't you like it" "because it's crap" discussion he is trying to say why do you think it's crap? he raises a lot of valid points about over-hyping leading to disappointment etc.

It's very difficult to look at these things objectively and not be biased towards your own point of view but broadly speaking I personally cannot see much difference between series 7 than any of the previous series of nuwho. Of course there is valid criticism and people should be free to post whatever they like but I do think that sometimes people are being overly critical. Recently I've seen all sorts of strange complaints, about the monsters being too rubbery (they've always been), about the show being too dark, (there's been some very bight episodes recently), complaining about an episode that doesn't even air for two weeks, complaining that the show is now 45 minutes instead of 60 minutes? etc etc.

Again, the end statement of the article wasn't saying that people should only post shiny, happy comments but rather that if people approach the show from a different perspective they may actually enjoy it.

Personally the only episode so far this series that I've been slightly underwhelmed by was Hide. Why? Because I was lead to believe something would be in the episode that wasn't from some of the promo photos and also because I was a little tired when I watched it. I watched it again a few days later with a clearer mind and much preferred it, yet it was exactly the same episode.

At least that's my take on it all but I'm probably entirely wrong as usual
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:28
DiscoP
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The bits I've highlighted are exactly how I feel about the show. I've been watching since the 80's and when the bad times hit, like Season 24 for example, I always believed the good times would come back. It's generally the way I feel at present. I'm not really enjoying Moffat's Who as much as I did RTD's. For me personally the bad episodes outweigh the good whereas it was the other was round in the previous era. For people who ask why we keep watching it's because you live for the really good episode(which has happened) and you also know that another change in style will occur one day. That may be worse, it may be better but that's what Doctor Who is about, changing and reinventing itself every few years.

In some respects that aspect hasn't altered since Classic Who. Even watching the Classic Series there are Seasons and Era's(like the Exile Scenario) that I dislike and stories within Seasons I dislike as well. Not every sort of story suits me and it's much the same today but with Moffat's Who it's more extensive imo.

As for the forum I've noticed a big change in attitude since I joined three years ago. People argued and had huge rows about different things but there wasn't so much of the 'This show is great and everyone else is wrong.'(and vice versa!) attitude that has crept in over the last year or so. It's one of the reasons I've not been posting so much lately and just sticking to the Classic Series threads, few as they are. For some strange reason, people seem to be able to discuss Classic Who in a far more civil tone than the New Series, as shown in the threads I did last year. We disagreed, had differences of opinion as always but none of this I'm right and you're wrong malarkey.

I often wonder if this down to the New Series Fans who aren't used to the many changes in style that used to occur in the old Series and expect it to stay the same all the time. Hence all the many heated debates that occur and nastiness that creeps in sometimes.

People really just need to accept that other Posters have different opinions. As someone has said already, if we all agreed on everything it would be a boring forum.

That's very true about the classic series threads. I used to enjoy reading the comments in those and it was always interesting to debate different opinions.

Maybe the passage of time has a lot to do with it as well. As the years go by the people that are "pro" an episode are not so passionate in their defence and the people that are "negative" about an episode have let go of some of their disappointment and anger.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:40
johnnysaucepn
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All I'll say is, there's a good reason that Facebook has a Like button and not a Dislike one.
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Old 29-04-2013, 15:52
Sophie ~Oohie~
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I don't know about other sites, but there seems to be the same amount of complaining on DS that there has been in the last five years and probably before, and if the posts on here represented general opinion wouldn't the ratings have dropped by now?
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Old 29-04-2013, 16:44
neutralned
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. If you try to look at it beyond the "why don't you like it" "because it's crap" discussion he is trying to say why do you think it's crap? he raises a lot of valid points about over-hyping leading to disappointment etc.

complaining about an episode that doesn't even air for two weeks, complaining that the show is now 45 minutes instead of 60 minutes?

Again, the end statement of the article wasn't saying that people should only post shiny, happy comments but rather that if people approach the show from a different perspective they may actually enjoy it.
But he refuses to accept the premise that the show isn't as good, because his personal feeling is that it is as good, (he refers to it as the best show on TV), and so he is trying to find excuses for people who don't think the same way as him. It's patronising, and ignores the valid points people are making about pacing, acting, scripts, etc. Does this 'different perspective' he moots involve switching off your brain and taste circuitry? I try to avoid hype, spoilers, etc and just watch the episode on its own merits. I come to it expecting it to be good, because I am a Dr Who fan, and most of the time it delivers. However I am the sort of person who is annoyed by thoughts such as,"where did the creature in the cage go?" (Rings) and "why the f--- would you stop running from a monster to admire a swimming pool and have a little read?" (Heart otT) unfortunately.

I totally agree it is ridiculous to denigrate episodes you haven't even seen yet though! Although I also find annoying the pages of people who post on the pinned episode BEFORE it has aired discussing how much they are looking forward to it, or going to enjoy it. There is plenty of annoying 'positive' fandom as well.

PS - Hide for me has been the episode that cheered me up as I really enjoyed it; it just goes to show that no episode is going to make every fan happy; not even Blink or the Doctor's Wife.
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Old 29-04-2013, 17:15
DiscoP
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But he refuses to accept the premise that the show isn't as good, because his personal feeling is that it is as good, (he refers to it as the best show on TV), and so he is trying to find excuses for people who don't think the same way as him. It's patronising, and ignores the valid points people are making about pacing, acting, scripts, etc. Does this 'different perspective' he moots involve switching off your brain and taste circuitry? I try to avoid hype, spoilers, etc and just watch the episode on its own merits. I come to it expecting it to be good, because I am a Dr Who fan, and most of the time it delivers. However I am the sort of person who is annoyed by thoughts such as,"where did the creature in the cage go?" (Rings) and "why the f--- would you stop running from a monster to admire a swimming pool and have a little read?" (Heart otT) unfortunately.

I totally agree it is ridiculous to denigrate episodes you haven't even seen yet though! Although I also find annoying the pages of people who post on the pinned episode BEFORE it has aired discussing how much they are looking forward to it, or going to enjoy it. There is plenty of annoying 'positive' fandom as well.

PS - Hide for me has been the episode that cheered me up as I really enjoyed it; it just goes to show that no episode is going to make every fan happy; not even Blink or the Doctor's Wife.
I tend not to notice these things as I'm watching and just get lost in it to be honest.

Not really relevant to a Doctor Who forum but I went to see Skyfall and thought it was great and then watched one of those "honest" trailers months later, that basically ripped it apart and pointed out all the plot holes and I felt a little foolish for not noticing a single one when I watched it!
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