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Old 29-04-2013, 18:43
levaniX
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http://i.imgur.com/rDxnIzY.jpg

Well, probably, I should have made this thread a little bit later, as VE Day is on may,8, alongside with Russian V-Day, but i've been thinking about it for a really long time, and finally, i've come to this. I finally made it. I just want to show you that the victory in WWII in Russia is not just a great event, but a cult

Why cult?
*-Russians in this case: all nations of Soviet union, including Eastern Slavs, Jews, Caucasians, some residents of Middle Asia, muslims etc.
Probably, because of the biggest contribution of Russia into the victory.
and the feel of superiority over other allies and others, that we contributed the most, not you, bloody british, americans, Russian shed their blood the most, mostly Russians and citizens of Soviet Union were victims of Nazis and their terrible crimes, massacre, not you.
You betrayed us and started and provoked a Cold War.
You think you won, but you didn't, you were just observing how we were winning and how we were becoming a great power

However, russians forget severe bombings of London during Blitz, Coventry, some other british town and cities, but they don't forget about Western Front that was delayed by western leaders, but Soviets urged to open it.

As for now, Russians still feel like that war continues, and that spirit still remains in them. At least, for a one day, for May, 9th.

"Glorious" patriots still think that war is still going.

On the other hand, Russia nowadays still has no a national idea yet that would unite them all, would lead them to the bright future, and the VR Day is the only day when all russians feel like one nation who think that Russia will kick ass everyone one day, as Stalin did one day.

Russians still haven't learned any historical lessons, as Germany did. As there are still patterns of totalitarian and authoritarian mind.
These patterns, unfortunately still haven't disappeared yet.

It feels like a religion, because vets are like saints. If they're alive, it means that saints are alive. Although people who really fought and suffered died really long time ago. These vets who are alive were behind these battles, actually.
arades are usually held all around the country, all channels(yes, all, except some cable and satellite ones) interrupt their broadcast to show a Minute of silence. at 6.
I'll prove it when I record it on May, 9th.

Many channels show patriotic films on this day.

Just compare VE Day celebration with VR Day. It's a massive difference actually. VR Day is the most important, most significant holiday in RUssia

VR Day is the day when people forget about the social problems and forgive all sins and bad things, in general, committed by the government


http://lurkmore.so/images/thumb/d/d2...0%B4%D1%8B.jpg
[youtube]63A9caiYnLw[/youtube]
http://www.dou2374.ru/wp-content/upl...e/DSC02501.JPG
http://lurkmore.so/images/8/89/Parad45flagi.jpg



Well, why not religion then?
Because religion involves a belief in something supernatural,
in god, for example.
No, Stalin is not the god. Not even an ambassador of God on Earth. Don't count him, although stalinists and mad mobs think so
Churchill with Roosevelt, as well.

St.George Ribbon. the symbol of the cult
Most of people wear St. George Ribbons
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/a...085_5116_1.jpg
http://www.yamolod.ru/sites/default/files/lenta.jpg
As the british do with Remembrance Day flowers
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...W2CwqrKtw4O7mA

They became notorious for being a symbol of true yobbism. Yobs thought that if he wears a ribbon(usually incorrectly), it means that he's a true patriot
http://lurkmore.so/images/7/70/Lenta8.jpg
http://lurkmore.so/images/a/a5/Lenta2.jpg
http://lurkmore.so/images/1/1a/Lenta.jpg



Why May, 9, not May,8 as it in Europe?
Because there were 2 capitulation acts
Russians recognize the 2nd capitulation act which was signed by Zhukov, not by an unknown military head!!!

Nevertheless, war was still continuing and there were lots of capitulation acts.



History of the holiday
First parade was held on June, 22nd, the date of german invasion. 3 Victory Days were held since then, 1946, 1947, 1948. Then celebration stopped in 1948, and all mentions about it were forbidden.

Then Khrushev made it a national holiday again, in the end of 60s, and the cult of the victory was forming

Which was reflected in many monuments all around Russia and its surroundings.
Monuments dedicated to WWII are situated virtually in every location of Russia.

The largest memorial complex in ex-USSR, dedicated to the victory situated near my house-Victory Park
http://all-pages.com/img/photoreport...t_198_8719.jpg

It was proposed even during 40s, but then had been under construction since 80s, and in 1995, due to the 50th anniversary of the victory, it was finally opened, and soviet project was changed a bit.

Memorial complex-Victory Park. Symbol of the victory cult
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8089/sam1564o.jpg
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9756/sam1566h.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6348/sam1571.jpg
"Tragedy of Nations" by Zurab Tsereteli
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3494/p1010370a.jpg
Monument dedicated to allies
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4619/p1010372c.jpg
French soldier, Soviet Soldier, American Soldier and British Soldier:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3378/p1010373z.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2900/p1010374i.jpg
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Old 29-04-2013, 18:51
Hugh Jboobs
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Tldr.
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Old 29-04-2013, 18:54
jenzie
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what TRASH is this???

this is assuming that PATRIOTISM is a CULT then???

and only some "patriots" ie YOBBOS copy off some other form of symbolism!

the vast majority of symbolism is copied by some other group to justify THEIR means
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Old 29-04-2013, 18:58
levaniX
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what TRASH is this???

this is assuming that PATRIOTISM is a CULT then???

and only some "patriots" ie YOBBOS copy off some other form of symbolism!

the vast majority of symbolism is copied by some other group to justify THEIR means
I didn't mean that patriotism equals cult..

Just a cult with elements of patriotism.(or passionate patriotism) And as for my experience, it really feels like a cult, which was cultivated during Khrushev, who returned the Victory Day in 60s.

On the other hand, Russians need a cult just to unite the whole nation. That's what they really need to establish themselves as a country. At least, it was once a great power.
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:02
hyena
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Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states, Poland...

One seriously fked up place during WW2.

I agree that Western Europe was like Disneyland compared to what went on in the east.
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:03
bugloss
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every country has some National Myth
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:16
levaniX
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Well, what about so-called land-lease?

Before 1943, the great turning point, when Russians finally began to kick asses to Germans, "land-lease" in fact helped a lot to compensate dated military equipment , and that's how the allies contributed into Soviet victory.

And the british and american forces were marching on the parade of 2010.
http://www.oknatass.ru/common/upload...f996fbc_XL.jpg
http://bigpicture.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/072.jpg
http://www.echo.msk.ru/att/element-677792-misc-00s.jpg

(although there were lots of patriots protesting against "NATO forces" marching on the parade)
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:19
jesaya
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What are we supposed to be discussing on this thread? That the USSR made a lesser contribution than they say? That they made a big contribution but need to stop going on about it for some reason? What?
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:22
levaniX
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So, there was a nationalist protest against "NATO forces marching on Red Sq"
http://varlamov.me/img/nbpnato/11.jpg
http://varlamov.me/img/nbpnato/12.jpg
-----------------
The British and american on the parade
http://varlamov.me/img/9may10parad/07.jpg
http://varlamov.me/img/9may10parad/09.jpg
http://varlamov.me/img/9may10parad/10.jpg
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:23
levaniX
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What are we supposed to be discussing on this thread? That the USSR made a lesser contribution than they say? That they made a big contribution but need to stop going on about it for some reason? What?
It's dedicated to 2 things:
1. Upcoming Victory Day
2. Russian contrubution into WWII

well NOONE argues the greatest contribution of USSR into the victory

but I don't like too much noise about it, way too massive and blind cult of the victory
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:27
levaniX
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And finally, video of "NATO forces" marching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4SYGzkbUQ
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Old 29-04-2013, 19:43
KJ44
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What are we supposed to be discussing on this thread? That the USSR made a lesser contribution than they say? That they made a big contribution but need to stop going on about it for some reason? What?
Exactly. LevaniX sets up a straw man and proceeds to knock it down.

(1) It was the Soviet Union, not Russia, Stalin can burn in hell.
(2) We British held out on our own in 1940 so we know who are our real friends are. Poland for starters.

I sincerely hope phylo sees this thread
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:07
levaniX
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Exactly. LevaniX sets up a straw man and proceeds to knock it down.

(1) It was the Soviet Union, not Russia, Stalin can burn in hell.
(2) We British held out on our own in 1940 so we know who are our real friends are. Poland for starters.

I sincerely hope phylo sees this thread
Well, i;m not here not to praise stalinism...

And do you really think that Soviets were as evil as Nazis, for example

I think Nazis were beasts, indeed.

Anyway, Stalin did not listen to the intellegence that June, 22 would be the most possible day of invasion, and this is why Russia was not really ready for the war yet in the first years.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:13
KJ44
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Well, we're here not to praise stalinism...

And do you really think that Soviets were as evil as Nazis, for example

I think Nazis were beasts, indeed.

Anyway, Stalin did not listen to the intellegence that June, 22 would be the most possible day of invasion, and this is why Russia was not really ready for the war yet.
That's a relief, but you must understand that your post used aggressive language, it assumes the audience are ignorant of history. Don't confuse the propaganda of the ruling class on either side with what people in both countries have learned.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:17
blueblade
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I agree that Russia lost the most in WW2 and contributed the most towards final victory over the Germans, but I really don't think that slating the Western allies is necessary. We all gave a lot and lost a lot. At one point Britain stood alone against the nazi war machine, whilst prior to 22nd June 1941,Stalin had a pact with Hitler, who between them had carved up Poland.

What if Hitler had never invaded Russia. I wonder how much the Russians would have cared about our fate.

Another point: The Western allies let the Russians take Berlin in recognition of their suffering under the Germans. Had we wanted to, we could have taken Berlin long before the Russians reached it.

Yeah, this country gave a hell of a lot in WW2, and after wards we were exhausted, run down and on our arse for several years.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:20
Bungitin
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Russia was planning to attack the west in 1942. The nightmare scenario was us ending up on the German side by default. The Soviets had plans for the Rumanian oilfields but Hitler beat them to it.

Stalin went on a rampage through Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania in 1939/40 and had its ass handed on a plate with Finland. Shook hands with Hitler over Poland.

I blame Stalin and not Russians in general, but saw no complaining prior to Germany beating the starting pistol in 1941. Same goes for Germany until 1943, no major complaints from Hitlers voters while he was winning.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:28
levaniX
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That's a relief, but you must understand that your post used aggressive language, it assumes the audience are ignorant of history. Don't confuse the propaganda of the ruling class on either side with what people in both countries have learned.
You know, sometimes I can't express my thoughts and sort them out properly, even in my native language, though i'm quite intellegent person

I thought really I was just expressing thoughts of most of Russians especially in the beginning
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:30
Robert of Wilms
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World War 2.....Theres so much twists to the whole thing that many people no longer believe everything we have been taught about Germany and Hitler
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:32
hyena
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World War 2.....Theres so much twists to the whole thing that many people no longer believe everything we have been taught about Germany and Hitler
What sort of things?
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:33
levaniX
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Here's the opinion of some russian in the forum
First of all, there was no friendship between Stalin and Hitler from beginning. This is Western myth. It was temporary alliance of 1939-1941 (just as British-Soviet alliance of 1941-1945). They even never met personally. From 1933, USSR was largest opponent of Nazi policy (see Civil War in Spain). Soviet leaders tried to sign act with Britain and France for anti-German cooperation.

However, instead of it, British PM and French President signed shameful Munich Act of 1938 with Hitler and Mussolini. That gave "green light" for Nazi expansion in Czechoslovakia and rest of Eastern Europe. Even after this, Stalin tried to form anti-Nazi coaliation, but all these proposals were rejected. It was clear - when Germany will occupy Poland, USSR will be next target for Nazi expansion. That's why it was important to remove future German-Soviet border on the west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

Secondly, the military plan for Nazi invasion into Poland was ready in the spring of 1939, when USSR tried to form military alliance with Brits and Frenchmen. According to this plan, the invasion should be started in late-August. As result, it was rescheduled just on few days. At that time, there was no any Soviet military plan for attack on Poland or any other country. It proves that USSR never was initiator of WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Weiss_%281939%29

Thirdly, Soviet invasion into Poland was started when it became clear that Nazi victory is obvious. In this case, Nazi forces would be located directly near Kiev and Minsk. Soviet leaders informed about own plans to British and Polish politicians. That's why Military Head of Polish Forces ordered not to resist Soviet Army, but continue to fight with Nazis. There was no Soviet-Polish War. All battles had police character.

Don't need to forget that Poland took part in the common invasion into Czechoslovakia in 1938 (in order to get territory that they lost as result of WWI), and was opponent of Soviet policy in 1920s-1930s. That's why USSR didn't feel responsibility to care about Polish destiny.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:34
phylo_roadking
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Why cult?
*-Russians in this case: all nations of Soviet union, including Eastern Slavs, Jews, Caucasians, some residents of Middle Asia, muslims etc.
Probably, because of the biggest contribution of Russia into the victory.
and the feel of superiority over other allies and others, that we contributed the most, not you, bloody british, americans, Russian shed their blood the most, mostly Russians and citizens of Soviet Union were victims of Nazis and their terrible crimes, massacre, not you.
Would these be the same ex-Soviet Russians who tend to forget that the war started because Hitler and Stalin...ideological enemies - came to an agreement over the invasion of Poland and the divvy'ing up of the Baltic States???

You betrayed us and started and provoked a Cold War.
You think you won, but you didn't, you were just observing how we were winning and how we were becoming a great power
Er...we betrayed YOU???

The Western Allies did EVERYTHING asked of them - including withdrawing from Czechoslovakia, and back across the Oder.

Would these be the same warwinning Soviets who within three weeks of VE Day were kidnapping Allied servicemen and women across the Occupied Sector boundaries into Eastern Berlin???

Well, what about so-called land-lease?

Before 1943, the great turning point, when Russians finally began to kick asses to Germans, "land-lease" in fact helped a lot to compensate dated military equipment , and that's how the allies contributed into Soviet victory.

And the british and american forces were marching on the parade of 2010.
http://www.oknatass.ru/common/upload...f996fbc_XL.jpg
http://bigpicture.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/072.jpg
http://www.echo.msk.ru/att/element-677792-misc-00s.jpg

(although there were lots of patriots protesting against "NATO forces" marching on the parade)
Leaving aside Lend Lease...don't forget it was BRITISH aid that kept the Soviet Union in the war through the end of 1941; over 25% of the tanks in Zhukov's counterattack around Moscow that halted the German advance were British...something Soviet Era Russian war historians tended to IGNORE COMPLETELY!

Have you ever looked at a list of what the Allies provided the Soviets with during WWII? It wasn't just weapons, you know...

It was BOOTS - five million pairs of them! It was SPAM...thousands of tons of the stuff; today, as I'm sure you're aware, Ruissian baboushkas still remember the wonderful stuf! It was TELEPHONES - thousands of them, and tousands of radios....and tens of thousands of TRUCKS....hundreds, thousands of tons of various vital minerals and explosives...hundreds of TRANSPORT aircraft in among the seven thousand oircraft the Allies provided....MACHINE TOOLS, even today you'll still find American manufacturing plant in former Soviet Era factories ....

And how many locomotives did the Soviets actually build during WWII??? 26....the AMERICANS provided the hundreds of locos of all sorts and sizes that the Soviets depended on whuile their OWN loco plants turned out tanks....and all the rolling stock that the Soviets destroyed themselves in 1941??? Replaced by American-manufactured rolling stock...

The British kept the USSR in the war in 1941; the U.S. kept the Soviet economy running for the rest of the war by filling in ALL the manufacturing the gaps the Soviets couldn't manage for themselves.....
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:35
KJ44
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^^^ the cavalry has arrived
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:36
blueblade
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You know, sometimes I can't express my thoughts and sort them out properly, even in my native language, though i'm quite intellegent person

I thought really I was just expressing thoughts of most of Russians especially in the beginning
Well if they think this:-

Probably, because of the biggest contribution of Russia into the victory.
and the feel of superiority over other allies and others, that we contributed the most, not you, bloody british, americans, Russian shed their blood the most, mostly Russians and citizens of Soviet Union were victims of Nazis and their terrible crimes, massacre, not you.
You betrayed us and started and provoked a Cold War.
You think you won, but you didn't, you were just observing how we were winning and how we were becoming a great power
Then it's really quite hurtful, because every older person who went through the war that I have talked to, always spoke of the Russians in the highest terms, and with glowing praise of their bravery and sacrifice.

I'm really sorry if they think this little of us.
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:36
Robert of Wilms
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What sort of things?
Just the official version of events. Im not going to add much here because this is not a forum for such discussion. Just saying all is not as it seems regarding the propaganda, fabrications and lies thats been indoctrinated as facts and truth of events surrounding world war 2
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Old 29-04-2013, 20:39
KJ44
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Apropos of phylo and logistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_...f_World_War_II
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