Ok so apparently Stephen Moffat says the Doctors Greatest Secret will be revealed this series.

We also know that towards the end of the original run of the series Andrew Cartmel planned to take the doctor in a darker direction and reveal him as something more significant than just a Timelord, this was evidenced in 'Remembrance of the Daleks', where The Doctor proclaims to Davros 'I'm more than just a timelord'.


I've just been reading the synopsis for the novel Lungbarrow, which is chronologically the final 7th Doctor story. This is the synopsis

PUBLISHER'S SUMMARY


"Nonsense, child," retorted the Doctor. "Grandfather indeed! I've never seen you before in my life!"

All is not well on Gallifrey. Chris Cwej is having someone else's nightmares. Ace is talking to herself. So is K9. Leela has stumbled on a murderous family conspiracy. And the beleaguered Lady President, Romanadvoratrelundar, foresees one of the most tumultuous events in her planet history.

At the root of all is an ancient and terrible place, the House of Lungbarrow in the southern mountains of Gallifrey. Something momentous is happening there. But the House has inexplicably gone missing.

673 years ago the Doctor left his family in that forgotten House. Abandoned, disgraced and resentful, they have waited. And now he's home at last.

In this, the Seventh Doctor's final New Adventure, he faces a threat that could uncover the greatest secret of them all.



The final line reads about the greatest secret of them all. My question is, we know Lungbarrow was essentially a continuation of the Cartmel Masterplan idea. I've not read the novel, but does anyone think Moffat could be borrowing from either Lungbarrow or The Cartmel Masterplan. Not the whole story but the idea of The Doctors greatest secret and the traveling time lord being something far more powerful?

Thoughts?

No

Lungbarrow hints massively that the Doctor is a re-incarnation of the Watcher, one of the founding fathers of Gallifrey. For it to work in the current series, we'd need the Time Lords back.

Sorry, have to nitpick - The Other, not the Watcher.

Well that clears that up no need to read it now I guess lol

You are correct. Been far too long since I delved into the Virgin lore.

It's a pretty good read, and was out in ebook format for free at one point I believe but it was an edited version. you can probably still find it online somewhere. If you want the actual book it will set you back about £50. Same as the Dying Days by Lance Parkin which was the last new Virgin novel to feature the Doctor, and the only one as portrayed by Paul McGann.

Anyway, the secret might be revealed, but crucially it is not made clear to whom it is revealed. It could be to Clara, it could be to some other character. It might not be to the viewer.

Whatever the Doctor's greatest secret is I'm sure it'll have nothing at all to do with any of that 'Cartmel masterplan' garbage, which I cannot find sufficient words to express my contempt and loathing for.

Totally concurr with you. Cartmel was crap. I sincerely think no right minded producer / show runner etc etc would even take any notice of that stupid dolt.

I re-read lungbarrow recently. I love it. But NO tonit ring the secret.

I'd actually love to read Lungbarrow, but having read extensively about the Cartmel Master plan, and seen this excellent recap of it, I think it's a god-awful contrivance that has no place in the canon. And I suppose "god-awful" is especially apt.

The great mistake was to try to make the Doctor into something other than a renegade Time Lord. He's defined as a rebel against his culture, not as some subversive god figure who transcended it from the start. I think RTD/Moffat, with the whole Last of the Time Lords/Lonely God theme never intended to try anything of the sort.

Now, I haven't even a guess at what Moffat will reveal about the significance of the Doctor's true name. It seemed from Sound of Drums to me that Time Lords, or at least the renegade variety, choose their handles and hide their names. The Doctor's though, burning in the Medusa Cascade as it does, must have some great power to it.

Edit: Lest someone should point out that I decry turning the Doctor into a God figure and then cite RTD's "Lonely God" theme as evidence that RTD/Moffat won't go that route, I think it's plain that the Lonely God epithet refers to 9/10's newfound role as last of the Time Lords, who were a god-like species to "lesser species."

On the subject of the Time Lords as God-Like, I just bought the Invasion of Time DVD and there's a great extra on it called "The Rise and Fall of Gallifrey." Watch t if you haven't seen it.

In order for the Doctor's true name to be meaningful, I'm toying with the idea the Doctor is Rassilon or Omega or all 3 (Omega being the Doctor's final incarnation - apt name)

This would explain the need to hide his true name.

This would allow for a shadowy figure to cross his own time stream to give the Time Lords power.

What a brilliant idea!

In The Armageddon Factor (4th Doctor) he meets a character called Drax who is another Time Lord called Drax who knew him from the academy and called him Theta Sigma and referred to him getting his doctorate. So maybe his name or a nickname has already been revealed.

I think that was explained in that episode as his nickname at the academy.

But all that Time Lord back story has been so downplayed since the 2005 revival that nothing to do with Rassilon or Omega would be particularly meaningful to new fans. I know a lot of people who like Doctor Who, but I think an explanation like that would leave them scratching their heads.

I disagree, especially concerning Rassilon, as he has already appeared in the revived series. All it takes is a couple of lines of dialogue to re-introduce Omega e.g.

CLARA - So tell me the story of how the Timelords came to be capable of travelling in time and space
DOCTOR - Well there was this guy called Omega... blah blah... but he went totally insane, lives in an antimatter universe and I've defeated him twice (brief flashback to The Three Doctors and The Arc of Infinity)...
CLARA - Oh no, I hope he's not the series 7 Big Bad...

Yes but even cartmel knew that oh reveal the secret. All he wanted to do was create mystery which hopefully Moffat will realise too,

And nothing at all was said about who he actually was or his significance.


Seeing as there's just one more episode to go before the finale, which I think is going to focus somewhat more on the Cybermen, they may be leaving it just a bit late for that kind of conversation. On the other hand, I've heard the Great Intelligence will be re-appearing and it's already been the big bad in two recent stories.

He can't be rallison or omega it wouldnt make sense. Omega is too much like a pantomime villain. He dosn't need a 3rd outing

I must say it's very refreshing to find someone else who doesn't regard the Cartmel era as a blend of the best work of Dennis Potter, Alan Moore and Isaac Asimov.


The greatest of many great mistakes from that era if you ask me, not least of which was making Andrew Cartmel script editor when he hadn't even written a script himself.
Last edited by Simon_Foston : 05-05-2013 at 13:38

Yes but it's not canon. All we seen on TV was a few which made him more mysterious which was a good idea . Cartmel had a good point

John Nathan Turner also made sure it didnt go too far...Cartmel always told how he'd get nervous when writers suggested he be God (and not "God-Like...but G-O-D), JNT once told the writer of Silver Nemesis "imply it, but don't say it"

Romana, K9, Ace, TimeLords, hopeless plot.....

... reads like another version of Dimension in Time.

*shudders*

It was going to be TV canon. Lungbarrow was set to be televised but J-NT vetoed that and they made Ghostlight instead. I would say thank goodness, but I'm not honestly that much more keen on Ghostlight.