I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend, who is a vegetarian. I asked her if she was going to the big festival on here this week, that is in honour of the patron saint of farmers, San Isidro.

She said no, because they use farm animals like oxs to pull carts full of people on their way to where the party is held.

It had never occurred to me that this could be cruel, after all what else is an ox for (other than making soup out of its tail).

Its a shame we can't post pictures on here, but this page has some photos of what goes on (which compared to many Spanish fiestas involving animals is very tame indeed):

San Isidro Nerja.

There is also a photo gallery further down the page. Its a hugely popular event here in Nerja, with most of the town partying all afternoon and long into the night.

I would say it depends how the animal is treated, some are treated very badly and that is cruel, but I know some heavy horses that are treated quite wonderfully but still do a days work and seem to enjoy it which cannot be cruel.

Sounds like your friend is a bit more than a vegetarian probably a member of peta.

I imagine it's less cruel than sticking swords in them.

Oxen are very strong and quite capable of pulling carts like those on the linked page. After all the wagon trains of the american pioneers were mainly pulled by oxen.

The animals in question are quite valuable and are being put on public show, so I seriously doubt any of them would be treated badly.

I think my friend is just being overly sensitive - I will ask her if she is a member of PETA.

True, but not relevant.

That is what I assumed. They are not going to be pulling the carts over huge distances, maybe 5 miles or so, so I can't see it is a real hardship.

'What else is an ox for?'

Really? I'm a little worried that you think an ox is FOR anything, no animal have evolved for human use, we may have bred them to our specifications but that does mean they are for that.

Anyway......I can see where your friends coming from, using an animal when we have an alternative seems very old fashioned to me. Is it cruel? I couldn't say one way or another without seeing it, but there is less concern for welfare in Spain in general than there is in the uk.

PETA association isn't necessarily bad, they have some extreme views, but I definitely think the world needs those extremists to push through the little changes that wouldn't happen otherwise, particularly where animal welfare is concerned.

It's not cruel as long as the load is not over bearing and the animal is kept well.... However, being familiar with spaniards standards in animal husbandry in general, yes, it probably is cruel in this instance....

Err, the idea is if a farmer owns an animal, pays its feed, vets and other bills, the farmer has a use in mind FOR that animal. Clearly that is anathema to some people, but it is a widespread and normal practice, not something that is worrying to the vast majority of people, provided the animal is not cruelly treated.

The question I am raising, is whether using an Ox to pull a cart loaded with humans a few miles is some kind of cruel treatment.

Its not like they are whipped and forced to run around a race track, jumping over hedges for people to bet on, for example.

Sorry, you can't just leap to that conclusion based on "animal husbandry in general" - there are many well kept animals in Spain that are not cruelly treated.

You can just as well argue that horses kept in the UK are probably cruelly treated because you are familiar with the Grand National.

Also something to think about is would any of these animals have survived so long if we humans didn't have a use for them. I doubt it somehow.

It's relevant in so far as I was commenting on the Spanish attitude to animals in general (e.g. hanging racing dogs because they don't perform well - just Google it).

You asked what else an ox was for, I was simply highlighting that no animal is 'for' anything. In an ideal world we wouldn't use animals for anything, including food. We are not in an ideal world though.

What you actually meant was 'what would a farmer keep an ox for if not to pull a cart' I can understand your point, but just because it happens doesn't mean its acceptable, nor does it mean its Unacceptable. Each practise IMO needs to be considered separately, which is why I said I couldn't say yes or no in this particular case, as I've not been there, seen it.

The question of whether it is cruel to make an ox pull a cart would depend on a number of things:

1) has the ox been bred specifically to pull a cart, you can't just go an pick up a bull and get it to pull a cart, years and years of breeding to increase muscle definition etc is needed (this is the same for racehorses, work horses, mules etc). Putting a cart on an individual that came from poor fitness bloodlines, or not working bloodlines may be cruel yes.

2) has that specific ox pulled a cart before (whether it has the right breeding or not), putting a car on an ox thats not been trained for it, or is used to pulling a smaller car would be cruel yes.

3) how was the specific animal trained? Was it beaten until it did was it was told, was it forced to pull the cart over and over again, causing injury? If so then its cruel yes. If it was trained with care and consideration, then perhaps not.

4) the welfare state of the animal - does it have any injuries, illness, infection? How old is it? How many carts does it have to pull in a day? How many people are on a cart? How much do they weight?

Like I said - there is no simple answer.


Animal Welfare in spain is atrocious, thats not an assumption by the poster, its a fact. Spain are known for not adhering to EU animal welfare laws, particularly when it comes to husbandry of bovines species as well as animals for entertainment (shall I mention bear dancing here.....). That does not mean that every single individual treats their animals badly, but it does mean that it happens a lot more there than here because the authorities don't prosecute.

I think based upon your defensive answers here - what you really wanted was us all to agree that it was ok, and are a bit miffed when we didn't!


In all likelyhood the species wouldn't exist at all. They are not natural species, they are human bred ones (just ilke dogs). Doesn't make it wrong or right, it just is

No, I think you have jumped to a number of conclusions, based on non-relevant facts, for example bear dancing, which has nothing to do with whether an ox should pull a cartload of people.

But I haven't jumped to any conclusions, I even said that in my post, I can't say yes or no to this as I cannot have a clear picture of all the factors I'd mentioned.

An no, Spain being poor at enforcing welfare legislation is not a thought or conclusion, it's a fact.

http://www.actin-spain.com/about-us/

The animals in the pictures look to be in very good health, and I don't think it is wrong to have working animals, so long as they are well treated and not overworked.

However, I do object to some things people get up to with animals for religious reasons and so on. Is it the Spanish who shove goats off bell towers or something at festivals?

I don't agree with this point. It's not 'just is' as it is a calculated and international act to breed animals for exploitation.

Is it cruel? well of course it is and it's every bit as cruel and barbaric as human slavery. So i say good on your friend for doing the morally correct thing and rejecting this as a moral matter.

Sorry bazaar I was mixing up your comments with orangebird.

Maybe I didn't phrase it right, what I meant was that we have played mad scientist and now have all these animals that would not exist with out all that human intervention. Now we have them we have the dilemmas about what to do with them, do we stop all breeding and let them die out? They can't be released as many would die, and not of old age, do we keep them as domestic species? If we do then do we keep working them?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer (that was my point, I didn't express it well)

An ok, but tbh, orange birds not wrong either, as per my link above, Spanish animal welfare is notorious for being poor. But that doesn't mean everyone there treats animals badly, nor does it mean here every is perfect at maintaining standards, but as a general rule the standard of welfare in Spain's poor, primarily due to lack of laws and enforcement but also education, the charity in the link act in Spain aim to work with those that want better welfare but can't achieve it, either due to lack of funds, education or facilities.

Beasts of burden?

The OP has, by the means of using those words, demeaned that a use of an animal is a burden to that animal. We, as humans seem to have an annoying habit to attaching our own emotions to something that to an animal does and is used for when in fact that animal does not care.

Is it because the animal is an Ox that is the concern here? Would the same worry be seen if the animal were 2 or 4 horses pulling a cart?

No. This is because to the OP's friends sees an Ox as not a common animal to be seen in the US and therefore, the act of it pulling a cart is a terrible burden for that animal.

The Ox has been used since before we could write words to help pull carts and move things from A to B. By their nature and build they are strong animals which are very well designed for such purposes.

If it was an animal that was NOT designed to pull such a cart (say, some goats, a flock of geese) then that would be cruel. To an Ox it is nothing more than us walking with a light back pack on our backs.

There is NO doubt a VAST amount of animal species would be extinct if they had not been able to serve a purpose and a lot of rare breeds are in fact dying out because they are no longer used for farming purposes.

So would the OP and their friend prefer to see an animal become extinct because they do not believe it should be used to carry or pull things?

No doubt that animal costs a lot of money to look after well (which sounds like they do) and to help create funds they use it to pull people along in a cart build for that purpose.

That Ox is most likely to be better looked after and loved than a human who has to work 4 jobs to get by and who is still unable to afford medical insurance.

Perhaps the OP's friend should focus more on the barbaric use of declawing cats, tail docking, removal of baby monkeys from their mothers to be sold as pets, the use of wild animals such as lions and tigers which are allowed to be kept as pets with no licence and other things going on the US rather than focus on boycotting a farm event because they use an animal like an Ox for the purpose that breed is still alive for.

How do you know the animal does not care? Is the ox not built for pulling carts due to us selective breeding? We have been doing alot of things since before we could write, does that mean we should still do them?

You criticise the op for humanising the animal, then compare it to someone that works 4 jobs.

I am not saying that working animals don't have a place in the world, nor am I saying that in this case it is ok, or not. I believe that each case needs to be assessed on the merits of welfare, sutiability for the task (species, breed and individual levels) and so on. Would I say the same if it were a horse? Yes.

Is the ops friend wrong for questioning it? No. Should she have made a decision or judgement without facts? No. But questioning is not bad, she just needs to make sure that what she's objecting to is actually happening. The ox may love pulling the cart, he may hate it - we don't know, we can only use behavioural and physiological assessments of welfare to establish some level of understanding.

IMO it isn't cruel to have animals working in the way they do best as long as welfare of the animal is looked after and the animal has time to be free at some point each day to enjoy not working too. Heavy horses were worked by my grandfather most of his life, they were magnificant beasts, he loved them and their health and happiness was all he thought of, he made sure every day they had a couple of hours run in the fields so they could socialise properly and have a good old roll in the long grasses.

They were IMO happy and when they retired lived another 10 years as pampered old ladies who didn't have to do a days work but still lined up each morning to be harnessed just like the younger ones - no cruelty involved.

But it is cruel to not treat them well, and sadly that happens far too often.