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Theory about what the Promise is


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Old 20-05-2013, 06:14
Alrightmate
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I don't know if there is an actual thread for theories and speculation, so I apologise beforehand if there already is and this post can be moved to it.

But I have an idea about the promise. It's really bog standard, boring and simple really.

Can the promise that John Hurt Doctor made and broke be that he had agreed to carry out the abominable action he apparently carried out by promising to not use the name of The Doctor?
In that John Hurt Doctor is actually The Doctor, but had to pretend not to be in order for subsequent Doctors to distance themselves from that action.
So the John Hurt Doctor made an agreement to pretend to be somebody else so that The Doctor could get away with it and would hopefully never ever get the blame for it, but the John Hurt Doctor changed his mind and admitted that he was indeed The Doctor after all.

Can it be that simple?
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:19
snopaelic
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I think the promise is just not to do evil things
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:25
Shoppy
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The Doctor says the name you choose is like a promise you make and he (Hurt) is the one that broke the promise.

He chose the name "The Doctor" and the promise a Doctor traditionally makes is the "Hippocratic oath"

I'm guessing the broken promise has parallels with that.

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Old 20-05-2013, 06:49
snopaelic
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Yes not too be evil.
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:50
Alrightmate
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The Doctor says the name you choose is like a promise you make and he (Hurt) is the one that broke the promise.

He chose the name "The Doctor" and the promise a Doctor traditionally makes is the "Hippocratic oath"

I'm guessing the broken promise has parallels with that.

Yes.

The Doctor (Paul McGann) knew that he had to do something terrible. But it was completely prohibited to do so while he was going under the name of The Doctor.
So he needed to find a means and a way.
Therefore he uses a regeneration, and the regenerated Doctor (John Hurt) MUST promise to pretend to be somebody else and go under another name. I don't know, go under the name of 'The Exterminator' or something. He MUST use this name only while he carries out genocide or other unforgivable things. He has to volunteer to be the fall guy and take the blame whilst in that incarnation of The Doctor.
Then this regenerated Doctor does terrible things, but reveals to somebody that he is actually The Doctor.
Then he regenerates again to another incarnation (Chris Eccleston) where The Doctor can go back to using the original name of The Doctor again.

Like we the viewers, fictional characters in the Doctor universe believe that The Doctor regenerated from the Paul McGann character into the Chris Eccleston one.

On screen it's made to appear as thought the John Hurt Doctor broke a promise to the Doctor in the eyes of the Matt Smith Doctor, as though he's a different character altogether.
But it may well probably turn out that in actuality it's more the case that The Doctor broke a promise which he made to himself. After all they are the same character if they're both manifestations of The Doctor
But broke a promise which was a little bit worse than just breaking a New Years resolution.
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Old 20-05-2013, 12:21
Virgil Tracy
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I sort of think something similar , but different -

I think the phrase "In the name of the Doctor" is important , it suggests to me that the Doctor is part of an order , and they take an oath , and they have some recognition as figures of power because they are part of an Order or respected institute / whatever , so to do things or say you're here to do something "In the name of the Doctor" has weight , and you are given trust based on that .

I think JH had a terrible choice and so he exploited this trust that people had in him as a "Doctor" and used it to destroy / genocide / etc.

.
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Old 20-05-2013, 13:06
platelet
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Hurt chose the lesser path. his name is
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Old 20-05-2013, 13:08
johnnysaucepn
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It's not the first time that the Doctor has mulled over dropping his name because of a terrible choice - see The Beast Below. However, that almost seems like a flippant threat compared to whatever this incarnation has actually done.
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Old 20-05-2013, 13:26
madscotsboy
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I just assumed that John Hurt was the mising incarnation of the doctor who
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Old 20-05-2013, 13:39
Thunder Lips
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I think you're over analysing to be honest. The name "The Doctor" is the promise, John Hurt broke it by hurting instead of healing, thus he's not worthy of the name. Simple as that.
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:02
Alrightmate
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I think you're over analysing to be honest. The name "The Doctor" is the promise, John Hurt broke it by hurting instead of healing, thus he's not worthy of the name. Simple as that.
How am I overanalyzing? That's kind of what I said more or less.
I was putting things into a theoretical context in how the actual framework of the story might work.
The only difference from what I said and what you said is that you state that John Hurt Doctor is a separate character, and I suggest that all incarnations are the Doctor so are no less guilty for the actions of one of the regenerations.

At this point nothing is overanalyzing because other than the people who work on the show, nobody knows.
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:06
Pull2Open
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I wonder what the Master or Rani's promise was?
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:12
Torry_Z
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I wonder what the Master or Rani's promise was?
To be overlords an despots of course... but in all seriousness this was implied by The Master that The Doctor chose a weak name about helping people but it just reflects their character...
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:16
Thunder Lips
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How am I overanalyzing? That's kind of what I said more or less.
I was putting things into a theoretical context in how the actual framework of the story might work.
The only difference from what I said and what you said is that you state that John Hurt Doctor is a separate character, and I suggest that all incarnations are the Doctor so are no less guilty for the actions of one of the regenerations.

At this point nothing is overanalyzing because other than the people who work on the show, nobody knows.
Well you've said twice now about JH making a promise to pretend not to be The Doctor, which is where I think you're over analysing. True there's obviously a lot more to the story which none of us know, but for now we can only take what we've been told which is that "The Doctor" is the promise and John Hurt is an incarnation who broke it by going against what the name entails. It's just a metaphor while you seem to be looking for an actual spoken promise.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:42
Alrightmate
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Well you've said twice now about JH making a promise to pretend not to be The Doctor, which is where I think you're over analysing. True there's obviously a lot more to the story which none of us know, but for now we can only take what we've been told which is that "The Doctor" is the promise and John Hurt is an incarnation who broke it by going against what the name entails. It's just a metaphor while you seem to be looking for an actual spoken promise.
What's overanalyzing? It's just speculation and having theories.
Who isn't speculating? That's the fun of it.
Everyone who is speculating and having theories are taking what was said and what has happened, and examining how that can be taken.

"but for now we can only take what we've been told..."
Well I'm taking my cues from what we've been told. We don't just take an individual bit of dialogue and think well that's it then. We take what we've seen from various elements and piece them together in such a way which is plausible.
Often what is said can be vague and is left open to interpretation.
What I've said doesn't go against what was said. It just extrapolates a theory from it.

What is it with people who complain about overanalyzing?
What else do you think people will be doing on here from now until November?
Unless we know what the final story is everything would be overanalyzing according to you.
If you've got it nailed then feel free to let us know how it'll pan out.

All of the main popular theories at the moment are simply theories which have taken what has happened and what has been been said, and have been extended further.
Everything is just imagination used to see what can make these theories viable or not.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:54
platelet
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I just assumed that John Hurt was the mising incarnation of the doctor who
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alternatively he could be
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Old 20-05-2013, 18:36
Thunder Lips
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What's overanalyzing? It's just speculation and having theories.
Who isn't speculating? That's the fun of it.
Everyone who is speculating and having theories are taking what was said and what has happened, and examining how that can be taken.

"but for now we can only take what we've been told..."
Well I'm taking my cues from what we've been told. We don't just take an individual bit of dialogue and think well that's it then. We take what we've seen from various elements and piece them together in such a way which is plausible.
Often what is said can be vague and is left open to interpretation.
What I've said doesn't go against what was said. It just extrapolates a theory from it.

What is it with people who complain about overanalyzing?
What else do you think people will be doing on here from now until November?
Unless we know what the final story is everything would be overanalyzing according to you.
If you've got it nailed then feel free to let us know how it'll pan out.

All of the main popular theories at the moment are simply theories which have taken what has happened and what has been been said, and have been extended further.
Everything is just imagination used to see what can make these theories viable or not.
I'm not exactly attacking you or trying to stop you from theorizing, just giving my own opinion. You've got this thread called "theory about what the promise is" when we already know; it's the name "The Doctor". Maybe over analysing wasn't the best term, how about "over complicating"? Without fail, every time there's a question or mystery about the show, fans delve into convoluted, wild theories and the real answer is always much simpler.
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Old 20-05-2013, 18:48
Virgil Tracy
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I'm not exactly attacking you or trying to stop you from theorizing, just giving my own opinion. You've got this thread called "theory about what the promise is" when we already know; it's the name "The Doctor". Maybe over analysing wasn't the best term, how about "over complicating"? Without fail, every time there's a question or mystery about the show, fans delve into convoluted, wild theories and the real answer is always much simpler.
eh ? The Doctor isn't an answer .
I think there must be a bit more to it than that , it must mean something rather significant to do things "in the name of the Doctor" , and I would assume that we'll be getting more about it in the 50th.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:02
munta
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alternatively he could be
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Wow. He's more than evil.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:08
Thunder Lips
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eh ? The Doctor isn't an answer .
I think there must be a bit more to it than that , it must mean something rather significant to do things "in the name of the Doctor" , and I would assume that we'll be getting more about it in the 50th.
I'm not getting you, answer to what? The name "The Doctor" is the promise.

edit: now I see you're probably referring to the end of my post, doh that was more talking in general, this specific thing doesn't need an answer or solution as such.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:22
Alrightmate
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I'm not exactly attacking you or trying to stop you from theorizing, just giving my own opinion. You've got this thread called "theory about what the promise is" when we already know; it's the name "The Doctor". Maybe over analysing wasn't the best term, how about "over complicating"? Without fail, every time there's a question or mystery about the show, fans delve into convoluted, wild theories and the real answer is always much simpler.
Well okay, I guess I may have overreacted a bit.

But I do stand by the point I made that speculation is mostly made by taking elements we've seen from more than one source episode and trying to make a pleasing fit which is plausible and viable.
I honestly haven't just taken one bit of dialogue and run away to some far fetched place. I have taken into account some of the behaviour of characters, the acting, and even considered some of what occurred way back in the 2005 series with the Christopher Eccleston Doctor. I just haven't replicated everything I've said in other posts here in this thread. I just wanted to test this theory to see if it works.

I probably did overreact a bit because that word 'overanalysing' is often used in a hostile manner on here, but you evidently didn't mean to come across as confrontational.

"Without fail, every time there's a question or mystery about the show, fans delve into convoluted, wild theories and the real answer is always much simpler"

Which is fair enough, but I believe that what I suggest is actually very simple in itself.
No massive armies of Daleks and Cybermen, no Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow ship in the sky, and no Dobbin the House Elf. Just a possible interpretation of what some dialogue could possibly infer. Nothing complicated.

As it goes, I don't necessarily believe that my own theory is the correct one. Just mulling over several theories on here to see what can fit and what can't.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:26
Virgil Tracy
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I'm not getting you, answer to what? The name "The Doctor" is the promise.

edit: now I see you're probably referring to the end of my post, doh that was more talking in general, this specific thing doesn't need an answer or solution as such.
but what does that mean ? it's more than just a name/title , he makes a big deal of the fact that JH broke the promise .
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:41
Thunder Lips
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but what does that mean ? it's more than just a name/title , he makes a big deal of the fact that JH broke the promise .
The name "The Doctor" carries an implied promise to help and heal. JH broke that by doing the opposite. I don't even consider that to be a theory as such, just a very straight up interpretation of what Eleven said at the end of the episode.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:43
16caerhos
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The promise is to be a healer, not a destroyer.

Which confuses me. Are the Doctor's completely separate entities or are they all exactly the same person with different bodies? The dialogue made it sound like Doctor Hurt is an entirely different person, and not the same Time Lord, otherwise why would Eleven be so cold and judgemental if Hurt's acts in the Time War were also technically the acts of Eleven?

I hope you understand what I mean, it's a confusing question.
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Old 20-05-2013, 19:49
Alrightmate
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eh ? The Doctor isn't an answer .
I think there must be a bit more to it than that , it must mean something rather significant to do things "in the name of the Doctor" , and I would assume that we'll be getting more about it in the 50th.
Yes, I think it's fair to extrapolate from that the John Hurt Doctor carried out actions which according to the Matt Smith Doctor should not have been carried out 'in the name of The Doctor'.
Which would imply that....

The John Hurt Doctor is not The Doctor, but was someone else who pretended to be The Doctor and used the name of The Doctor as an imposter.
Or...
The John Hurt Doctor is The Doctor.

For the John Hurt Doctor to break the promise it surely suggests that at one point he actually was The Doctor, until he broke the promise, where the Matt Smith Doctor refuses to see him as such and cannot bring himself to see him as worthy of using the name.
If John Hurt wasn't The Doctor then why would he even make a promise to live by what that name stands for?

I'm just approaching this as though there is just The Doctor.
The Doctor knows that something drastic needs to be done.
A regeneration takes place and The Doctor does something that doesn't go down too well.
He regenerates again.
Now the newly regenerated Doctor despises his previous regeneration and despises him for what he did and sees him as a separate entity.
But that regeneration was still The Doctor. So The Doctor is still guilty whatever regeneration he's in, be it Doctor 9, Doctor 10, or Doctor 11. He's still The Doctor whatever name he wants to see himself to be.

I just wonder if it's possible that these terrible actions could have been premeditated by Paul Mcgann as Doctor 8, and a regeneration was used to carry them out and use as a get out of jail free card? So that The next regeneration of The Doctor (Christoper Eccleston as Doctor 9) can wash his hands clean of that 'nasty' regeneration with the intention to move on as conscience free as possible?

Obviously this is all assuming that this John Hurt Doctor was guilty of atrocities in the Time War. And bearing in mind that Doctor 9 was racked with guilt, but did try to excuse himself on occasion. But at that point there was not a lot of distance from events as there is now with Matt Smith's Doctor.
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