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Old 20-05-2013, 14:16
bobbit
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It seems pretty clear to me that Hurt's intended to be a "missing" regeneration. He's the ninth incarnation of the character's body, but because his actions caused him to not be "the Doctor", he's not "the ninth Doctor". So the Doctor is now on his twelfth life, but he's still "the eleventh Doctor". That's his "greatest secret", the one he "took to his grave".

(Remember that this was planted by Moffat way back in The Beast Below, as well: "Then I'll have to find another name, because I won't be the Doctor any more...")

He can't be a future incarnation, because the episode makes very clear that Smith's Doctor doesn't know anything about his own future - but he does know/recognise Hurt. And I don't believe he's an aged Eighth Doctor, because there's no reason why they wouldn't just get McGann back for that (or why McGann wouldn't do it).

Thoughts...?
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:27
Laura_Amanda
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I think you point out some great truths... The 23rd of November can't come soon enough
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:35
bobbit
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I think you point out some great truths... The 23rd of November can't come soon enough
6 bloody months!
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:49
Pull2Open
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It seems pretty clear to me that Hurt's intended to be a "missing" regeneration. He's the ninth incarnation of the character's body, but because his actions caused him to not be "the Doctor", he's not "the ninth Doctor". So the Doctor is now on his twelfth life, but he's still "the eleventh Doctor". That's his "greatest secret", the one he "took to his grave".

(Remember that this was planted by Moffat way back in The Beast Below, as well: "Then I'll have to find another name, because I won't be the Doctor any more...")

He can't be a future incarnation, because the episode makes very clear that Smith's Doctor doesn't know anything about his own future - but he does know/recognise Hurt. And I don't believe he's an aged Eighth Doctor, because there's no reason why they wouldn't just get McGann back for that (or why McGann wouldn't do it).

Thoughts...?
BIB, as I mentioned in another thread, Moffat may have simply wanted a bigger name for the 50th and chose Hurt to be an older McGann!
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:50
darthbibble
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BIB, as I mentioned in another thread, Moffat may have simply wanted a bigger name for the 50th and chose Hurt to be an older McGann!
I seriously doubt Moffat would have gone down that route
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Old 20-05-2013, 14:54
Pull2Open
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I seriously doubt Moffat would have gone down that route
Why not?
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:06
darthbibble
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off the top of my head (and I'm not saying he definitely isn't, I just think it's unlikely)

a/ As a fan of the programme Moffat wouldn't want to insult Paul McGann (and similarly those with happy memories of Doctor #8)
b/ He knows it's an anniversary why muddy the water by unnecessarily getting a role played by a different actor? If he wanted the fourth Doctor in it, he wouldn't recast just because Tom Baker looks too old and nothing like how he was - he'd find a way around it.
c/ McGann is probably cheaper than Hurt even with a make up job.
d/ If he still wanted a big name he could have given other parts (IE not #8) to a big name actor.
e/ John Hurt doesn't look anything like Paul McGann
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:09
Pull2Open
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off the top of my head (and I'm not saying he definitely isn't, I just think it's unlikely)

a/ As a fan of the programme Moffat wouldn't want to insult Paul McGann (and similarly those with happy memories of Doctor #8)
b/ He knows it's an anniversary why muddy the water by unnecessarily getting a role played by a different actor? If he wanted the fourth Doctor in it, he wouldn't recast just because Tom Baker looks too old and nothing like how he was - he'd find a way around it.
c/ McGann is probably cheaper than Hurt even with a make up job.
d/ If he still wanted a big name he could have given other parts (IE not #8) to a big name actor.
e/ John Hurt doesn't look anything like Paul McGann
I would hope this too but I believe he has done it and recast 8 as an older version. Anyhoo, time will tell!
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:15
ea91
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I would hope this too but I believe he has done it and recast 8 as an older version. Anyhoo, time will tell!
Well you're still wrong. Clara said she saw eleven faces. Hurt was not one of them.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:35
Pull2Open
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Well you're still wrong. Clara said she saw eleven faces. Hurt was not one of them.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can categorically with full conviction, state that someone elses theory is wrong when NONE of us know anything!

She saw 11 faces yes, and?
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:37
Alrightmate
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It seems pretty clear to me that Hurt's intended to be a "missing" regeneration. He's the ninth incarnation of the character's body, but because his actions caused him to not be "the Doctor", he's not "the ninth Doctor". So the Doctor is now on his twelfth life, but he's still "the eleventh Doctor". That's his "greatest secret", the one he "took to his grave".

(Remember that this was planted by Moffat way back in The Beast Below, as well: "Then I'll have to find another name, because I won't be the Doctor any more...")

He can't be a future incarnation, because the episode makes very clear that Smith's Doctor doesn't know anything about his own future - but he does know/recognise Hurt. And I don't believe he's an aged Eighth Doctor, because there's no reason why they wouldn't just get McGann back for that (or why McGann wouldn't do it).

Thoughts...?
I completely understand what you mean.
But it's a matter of perspectives isn't it?
Every Doctor after the John Hurt regeneration including the Matt Smith Doctor doesn't want to see him as The Doctor because he wants to disown him.
But wouldn't that be more to do with The Doctor being in denial?
The John Hurt Doctor would still be The Doctor, it's just that the Matt Smith Doctor doesn't want him to be.

It could be the case that The Doctor is acting like an ex-criminal on a witness protection programme where they try to erase knowledge of their past self and take on a new life to protect themselves and don't want to see themselves as being that person they used to be, and even see themselves as having a different names.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:48
munta
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It never ceases to amaze me how people can categorically with full conviction, state that someone elses theory is wrong when NONE of us know anything!

She saw 11 faces yes, and?
While not 100 % it does seem pretty likely that since clara didn't recognise Hurt that he's not a previous doctor. If I were a betting man I would be pretty safe to say that that theory is wrong.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:48
Alrightmate
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Well you're still wrong. Clara said she saw eleven faces. Hurt was not one of them.
Well I couldn't say with any conviction that is wrong because unless any of us have inside knowledge nobody knows for sure.

The reason Clara didn't see the John Hurt version of The Doctor could be for a multitude of reasons.
Perhaps The Doctor's timestream is based on selective memory of events and what he tries to forget is not as clear as some of his greatest hits?

Because even though Clara didn't see the John Hurt Doctor in the timestream, he was still somewhere in there at the end in some sort of mental attic in which the Doctor had compartmentalized to put him in.
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:51
James Frederick
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While not 100 % it does seem pretty likely that since clara didn't recognise Hurt that he's not a previous doctor. If I were a betting man I would be pretty safe to say that that theory is wrong.
At the same time when Clara asked who Hurt was 11 said "He was me" so speaking about Hurt in a past tense
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:53
Pull2Open
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While not 100 % it does seem pretty likely that since clara didn't recognise Hurt that he's not a previous doctor. If I were a betting man I would be pretty safe to say that that theory is wrong.
Is it not reasonable that such a secret or an incarnation that was NOT at that time, The Doctor, as has been discussed in other threads, may have been hidden from Clara because the Doctor has hidden it from himself? The Doctor himself refers to him in the past!

Its as plausible as any other theory!
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Old 20-05-2013, 15:57
MinkytheDog
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He can't be a future incarnation, because the episode makes very clear that Smith's Doctor doesn't know anything about his own future - but he does know/recognise Hurt.
Not necessarily.

If the Doctor recognised the location (which was carefully not named and equallu carefully highlighted as being an unknown location) - he might simply know that whoever was there would have to be that character.

He wouldn't need to actually "recognise" JH - and in fact, he didn't - he IDENTIFIED him - from behind.
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:00
Alrightmate
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While not 100 % it does seem pretty likely that since clara didn't recognise Hurt that he's not a previous doctor. If I were a betting man I would be pretty safe to say that that theory is wrong.
Yes, but only by name. If he existed as a regeneration he should still be The Doctor as a real person.
If I changed my name by deed poll to another name I wouldn't cease to exist in the past and be erased from history when I was called something else.

The Matt Smith Doctor did recognise him as him (Matt Smith Doctor). It was by the name of The Doctor he had issue with.
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:03
johnnysaucepn
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It never ceases to amaze me how people can categorically with full conviction, state that someone elses theory is wrong when NONE of us know anything!

She saw 11 faces yes, and?
She said that she had seen all the Doctor's incarnations, and there were eleven of them. And that he was not one of them.

It's not just a matter of a different actor. He's not just an aged version of an existing incarnation.

Edit: I think what's interesting is that Clara got scattered to all the points in the Doctor's history exposed by his grave, i.e. all the points where he had travelled in time. If that's the case, then it implies that the Hurt Doctor didn't travel anywhere.
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:04
Thrombin
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Well I couldn't say with any conviction that is wrong because unless any of us have inside knowledge nobody knows for sure.

The reason Clara didn't see the John Hurt version of The Doctor could be for a multitude of reasons.
Perhaps The Doctor's timestream is based on selective memory of events and what he tries to forget is not as clear as some of his greatest hits?

Because even though Clara didn't see the John Hurt Doctor in the timestream, he was still somewhere in there at the end in some sort of mental attic in which the Doctor had compartmentalized to put him in.
The way I see it, The Great Intelligence researched the Doctor to the best of his knowledge and research abilities and identified the 11 standard Doctors that we know about. When he went into the Doctor's timestream he targetted the times and places that he had researched in order to sabotage the Doctor's efforts at those points. Clara just followed the GI.

Therefore, any secret Doctors or future Doctors that the GI hadn't found in his research would not have been visited by either the GI or by Clara.
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:08
darthbibble
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At the same time when Clara asked who Hurt was 11 said "He was me" so speaking about Hurt in a past tense

He could mean "he was the Doctor" not "he was the Doctor before I (#11) was"
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:08
Pull2Open
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She said that she had seen all the Doctor's incarnations, and there were eleven of them. And that he was not one of them.

It's not just a matter of a different actor. It's a different incarnation.
So its not possible that she only saw a younger 8! Look, I'm not going to argue what may or may not be....its all in the air,all we do know is that its a past Doctor!
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:12
darthbibble
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its all in the air,all we do know is that its a past Doctor!
Actually what we know is that JH's character "was the Doctor"


the statement is semantically ambiguous
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:15
Pull2Open
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Actually what we know is that JH's character "was the Doctor"


the statement is semantically ambiguous
The Doctor talks about him in the past tense, talks about his actions in the past tense, sympathetically says 'I know' in response to JHs justification for his actions, suggesting he has already experienced the dilemma. Not ambiguous to me!
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:16
munta
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At the same time when Clara asked who Hurt was 11 said "He was me" so speaking about Hurt in a past tense
Sorry. I should have been more specific. I meant not one of the previously known doctors.
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Old 20-05-2013, 16:17
darthbibble
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The Doctor talks about him in the past tense, talks about his actions in the past tense, sympathetically says 'I know' in response to JHs justification for his actions, suggesting he has already experienced the dilemma. Not ambiguous to me!
Yes but it doesn't necessarily make him a past (incarnation of) the Doctor
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