Digital Spy

Search Digital Spy
 

DS Forums

 
 

Valeyard theory/question


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21-05-2013, 01:26
grizzlyvamp
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Limbo
Posts: 1,053

Ok, so I'm wondering where I would be able to view The Trial of the Time Lord story (from the start) so I can see the whole Valeyard story myself so I can form a more accurate theory about who John Hurt might be.

I'm one of those who subscribe to the Valeyard theory and so want to see those episodes so I understand that better. Sure I'm not old enough to have seen old who and I haven't made a big effort to watch them but I do want to catch up with this story line in particular.
grizzlyvamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 21-05-2013, 01:45
JCR
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Posts: 14,195
If you want to watch classic who starting pretty much anywhere else is better than Trial. It's largely rubbish. The best bits involve Brian Blessed shouting at people and there are better places to see that.

The Valeyard was supposed to be the final regeneration of the Doctor, bitter and scared of dying, as written by one of the best Who writers, Robert Holmes. Alas producer John Nathan-Turner got cold feet on the idea and it was changed to the Valeyard being an amalgamation of the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality between the 12th and 13th Doctor. And if that sounds like nonsense, it's because it is.
JCR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 09:47
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
Interesting lines in this clip....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Q1g7mpcMw
Not that I know for sure but it looks like this might be from The Trial of the Timelord episode. Never seen it myself.

The Master: "They made a deal with The Valeyard, or as I've always known him, The Doctor"
The Doctor: (Looking a bit taken aback) "Did you call him....The Doctor?"

Which is interesting in respect to the dispute Doctor 11 had about 'The Name of The Doctor' in the previous episode.
To some it may appear that the name of The Doctor is a matter of perspective. Which was alluded towards in the previous episode by The Great Intelligence.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 10:34
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
Hang on, in some threads some people say that this John Hurt Doctor can't be a future Doctor because he says that this characters was/is him (someone he has already met), many people assume this to mean that he must be something like Doctor Zero, or a Doctor regeneration between 8 and 9.

But when the Matt Smith Doctor said that the John Hurt Doctor was/is him, could he not be referring directly to the episode Trial of the Timelord?
Not a future Doctor, not Doctor Zero, not Doctor 8-9, but The Valeyard from Trial of the Timelord?
That would work wouldn't it?

Of course as this show is about time travel, to further muddy the waters, I guess he could be The Valeyard AND be a Doctor 8-9 who was responsible for what happened in the Time War. Those two things don't need to be mutually exclusive from each other.
Or he could be The Valeyard AND Doctor Zero in theory.
Or The Valeyard AND a future Doctor.
Or The Valeyard AND all three of the above.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 10:40
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
If you want to watch classic who starting pretty much anywhere else is better than Trial. It's largely rubbish. The best bits involve Brian Blessed shouting at people and there are better places to see that.

The Valeyard was supposed to be the final regeneration of the Doctor, bitter and scared of dying, as written by one of the best Who writers, Robert Holmes. Alas producer John Nathan-Turner got cold feet on the idea and it was changed to the Valeyard being an amalgamation of the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality between the 12th and 13th Doctor. And if that sounds like nonsense, it's because it is.
That's interesting. That's new to me.
They may quite possibly go with that untold story over the amalgamation idea depicted in the Trial of The Timelord story.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 11:40
grizzlyvamp
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Limbo
Posts: 1,053
If you want to watch classic who starting pretty much anywhere else is better than Trial. It's largely rubbish. The best bits involve Brian Blessed shouting at people and there are better places to see that.

The Valeyard was supposed to be the final regeneration of the Doctor, bitter and scared of dying, as written by one of the best Who writers, Robert Holmes. Alas producer John Nathan-Turner got cold feet on the idea and it was changed to the Valeyard being an amalgamation of the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality between the 12th and 13th Doctor. And if that sounds like nonsense, it's because it is.
Whilst that is admirable I have neither the time or patience to do so, whether or not it is very good is despite the point I want to see it more because it directly affects theories on who Hurt is ergo I want to see it so I can make fair judgement on my own about these theories.
grizzlyvamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 12:38
Cel1084
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 519
I would say it possible, except Hunt's Doctor said he did it for peace, whatever it is he did. The Valeyard did what he did to prolong his life and out of greed. So it doesn't quite fit, but I suppose if the can completely ignore the fact that the doctor was half human in the TV movie, they can pretty much change anything they want.

So basicly if you go by old who its not likely Hunt is the Valeyard, but anything is possible in the 2005 series or even just if the change the head writer. I'm sorry but doctor who's canon is far from consistent. I guess 50 years of a show about time travel will do that..
Cel1084 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 13:09
Wizartar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 121
The Doctor says "he's the one that Broke the Promise" the promise is the title "Doctor". That suggests he's not Doctor Zero or Pre-Doctor. He could be the Time War Doctor who breaks the promise to end the war or a future Doctor. I hope he's an aspect of the Valeyard and could be Moffetts take on that character
Wizartar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 14:15
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
I would say it possible, except Hunt's Doctor said he did it for peace, whatever it is he did. The Valeyard did what he did to prolong his life and out of greed. So it doesn't quite fit, but I suppose if the can completely ignore the fact that the doctor was half human in the TV movie, they can pretty much change anything they want.

So basicly if you go by old who its not likely Hunt is the Valeyard, but anything is possible in the 2005 series or even just if the change the head writer. I'm sorry but doctor who's canon is far from consistent. I guess 50 years of a show about time travel will do that..
Most war leaders say that they go to war in the name of peace.
George W Bush said the same.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 14:18
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
The Doctor says "he's the one that Broke the Promise" the promise is the title "Doctor". That suggests he's not Doctor Zero or Pre-Doctor. He could be the Time War Doctor who breaks the promise to end the war or a future Doctor. I hope he's an aspect of the Valeyard and could be Moffetts take on that character
Why does it?
I really don't understand this at all when people say this.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 14:19
darthbibble
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,326
Most war leaders say that they go to war in the name of peace.
George W Bush said the same.

We come in peace, shoot to kill - Capt Kirk (Star Trekin)
darthbibble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 14:54
CoalHillJanitor
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,032
Why does it?
I really don't understand this at all when people say this.
Well, how can you break a promise you haven't made?
CoalHillJanitor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 15:00
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
Well, how can you break a promise you haven't made?
But why is it assumed that he didn't make it?

Surely the opposite assumption should be that he did make the promise if he went on to break it?
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 16:25
TheSilentFez
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In the corner of your eye...
Posts: 9,016
You can probably illegally watch it somewhere online or you can buy the DVD.
I actually enjoyed Trial of a Time Lord much more than the previous season. Terror of the Vervoids is my favourite Colin Baker story and the other stories weren't bad.
In the end, the Valeyard loses all his potential and becomes a bog standard pantomime villain complete with evil laugh.
I'd say it's far from bad, but if you want to watch some great Classic Who, you're best starting off with a different season.
TheSilentFez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 18:29
DariaM
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,009
Ok, so I'm wondering where I would be able to view The Trial of the Time Lord story (from the start) so I can see the whole Valeyard story myself so I can form a more accurate theory about who John Hurt might be.

I'm one of those who subscribe to the Valeyard theory and so want to see those episodes so I understand that better. Sure I'm not old enough to have seen old who and I haven't made a big effort to watch them but I do want to catch up with this story line in particular.
The Valeyard is one Theory.... however, given that Souffle Girl entered the timeline of Matt Smith's Doctor (ignoring the fact that the 2005+ series remains non canon to the original series), in a premise remarkably similar to Sam Beckett entering the Quantum Leap Accelerator, it is also quite possible that John Hurts character is entirely separate to The Valeyard.

For example - if the issue of "The Promise" is significant, then one issue which could arise would be (for example) one Time Lord agreeing not to enter the timeline of any other Time Lord through entering their tomb.Rassilon would certainly ignore such a promise, as would Omega, and possibly Pthyia.
DariaM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 19:00
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
The Valeyard is one Theory.... however, given that Souffle Girl entered the timeline of Matt Smith's Doctor (ignoring the fact that the 2005+ series remains non canon to the original series), in a premise remarkably similar to Sam Beckett entering the Quantum Leap Accelerator, it is also quite possible that John Hurts character is entirely separate to The Valeyard.

For example - if the issue of "The Promise" is significant, then one issue which could arise would be (for example) one Time Lord agreeing not to enter the timeline of any other Time Lord through entering their tomb.Rassilon would certainly ignore such a promise, as would Omega, and possibly Pthyia.
That's an interesting thought. Clara and The Doctor went into The Doctor's timestream, and both eventually landed in that...place. Whatever that place is.

So would it be logical to speculate that the John Hurt Doctor also entered the timestream for him too to also end up there? Seeing as they're the only three people there, and both Clara and The Doctor are there because they entered the timestream. Surely that might suggest that the John Hurt Doctor also entered that timestream from the same place that they did?

I'm not saying that he did enter the timestream just like Clara and The Doctor did, but it would be a logical assumption to make wouldn't it?

That may be why Clara never saw him in the timestream in the same way in which she saw all the other Doctors. Because the John Hurt Doctor entered the timestream in exactly the same way that she did and wasn't already in it like the other 11 Doctors were.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 19:10
CoalHillJanitor
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,032
But why is it assumed that he didn't make it?

Surely the opposite assumption should be that he did make the promise if he went on to break it?
But the promise was the name.
CoalHillJanitor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 19:18
Abercynon's Arm
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 33
That's an interesting thought. Clara and The Doctor went into The Doctor's timestream, and both eventually landed in that...place. Whatever that place is.

So would it be logical to speculate that the John Hurt Doctor also entered the timestream for him too to also end up there? Seeing as they're the only three people there, and both Clara and The Doctor are there because they entered the timestream. Surely that might suggest that the John Hurt Doctor also entered that timestream from the same place that they did?

I'm not saying that he did enter the timestream just like Clara and The Doctor did, but it would be a logical assumption to make wouldn't it?

That may be why Clara never saw him in the timestream in the same way in which she saw all the other Doctors. Because the John Hurt Doctor entered the timestream in exactly the same way that she did and wasn't already in it like the other 11 Doctors were.
It wasn't a 'place' it was 'the whole of the Doctor's life'; they didn't 'end up in the same place' but the Doctor sought out Clara to save her. Of course, that doesn't explain entirely why the JH 'Doctor' was there - or does it? Surely the only reason this other form was brought to mind was because the Doctor was conscious - massively so - that somewhere here was bound to be that figure.

Having just watched the Trial clip for the first time since I paid no attention to the script, I'm fairly sure that Moffatt could, and would, use that exchange between the Doctor and the Master to build new conflicts. The Valyard is know to 11 because he remembers what 6 heard. He knows that between 12 and 13, the dark side of his character will, eventually, do great evil. For me, it was one of the reason for tears this past episode; he can't avoid that eventuality.

But I dare say that meeting the incarnation who did wrong 'Not in the Name of the Doctor' will, in time, help him cope.
Abercynon's Arm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 19:43
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
But the promise was the name.
So, I don't get your point?
He made a promise and he broke it.
The only reason I can see why he couldn't make the promise is if it was explicitly stated somewhere that the William Hartnell Doctor was the very first one to make that promise.

And even then, people are saying he made the promise, and the promise is the name, 'The Doctor'.
What does that even mean? It doesn't even make grammatical sense, so I really don't understand what some people are getting at.

Yes, I know that 'The Doctor' is supposed to mean that he is expected to uphold good intentions and do good things, but the words 'The Doctor' is a promise in itself? How?
From the information provided to us in the episode there has been no real context given of the background to this promise. So I don't get this notion that the John Hurt couldn't have made the promise or be a Doctor Zero before Hartnell.
I really don't.

On this little thing I'm not seeing people elaborate on what they actually mean. People are just saying that "he couldn't make the promise because the promise is the name".
I honestly don't understand what that means.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 19:58
FATCHOPS
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: York
Posts: 594
The Valeyard is one Theory.... however, given that Souffle Girl entered the timeline of Matt Smith's Doctor (ignoring the fact that the 2005+ series remains non canon to the original series), in a premise remarkably similar to Sam Beckett entering the Quantum Leap Accelerator, it is also quite possible that John Hurts character is entirely separate to The Valeyard.

For example - if the issue of "The Promise" is significant, then one issue which could arise would be (for example) one Time Lord agreeing not to enter the timeline of any other Time Lord through entering their tomb.Rassilon would certainly ignore such a promise, as would Omega, and possibly Pthyia.
You must be gutted.
FATCHOPS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 21:23
johnnysaucepn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,151
(ignoring the fact that the 2005+ series remains non canon to the original series)
Surely it must be getting really difficult to maintain that fiction in the face of last week's events?
johnnysaucepn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 22:07
Whovian1109
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,329
But the promise was the name.
So, I don't get your point?
He made a promise and he broke it.
The only reason I can see why he couldn't make the promise is if it was explicitly stated somewhere that the William Hartnell Doctor was the very first one to make that promise.

And even then, people are saying he made the promise, and the promise is the name, 'The Doctor'.
What does that even mean? It doesn't even make grammatical sense, so I really don't understand what some people are getting at.

Yes, I know that 'The Doctor' is supposed to mean that he is expected to uphold good intentions and do good things, but the words 'The Doctor' is a promise in itself? How?
From the information provided to us in the episode there has been no real context given of the background to this promise. So I don't get this notion that the John Hurt couldn't have made the promise or be a Doctor Zero before Hartnell.
I really don't.

On this little thing I'm not seeing people elaborate on what they actually mean. People are just saying that "he couldn't make the promise because the promise is the name".
I honestly don't understand what that means.
Picking up on this debate. There are 11 Doctors, because (at least as far as I read into it) John Hurt's incarnation broke the promise that the name Doctor means. Whilst it is unlikely that he is Doctor Zero, I still think it's possible. After all, he could just as easily take the name and then break the promise the same as any other incarnation could have. If he is an incarnation of the Doctor, I doubt he would've broken the promise without a good reason. I also doubt it is the 9th, because the Doctor is very open about The Time War and it is also a secret he has been running from his whole life. Also, the way 11 says "I know" implies that JH did in fact have no choice.
Whovian1109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 23:34
Alrightmate
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 52,781
Picking up on this debate. There are 11 Doctors, because (at least as far as I read into it) John Hurt's incarnation broke the promise that the name Doctor means. Whilst it is unlikely that he is Doctor Zero, I still think it's possible. After all, he could just as easily take the name and then break the promise the same as any other incarnation could have. If he is an incarnation of the Doctor, I doubt he would've broken the promise without a good reason. I also doubt it is the 9th, because the Doctor is very open about The Time War and it is also a secret he has been running from his whole life. Also, the way 11 says "I know" implies that JH did in fact have no choice.
That's how I see it too. He makes the promise, then later breaks it. I don't see how that's an issue whatever Doctor he was.
If it's the 'name' of The Doctor which is the issue then I don't think that's the point. That's a perspective issue about whether The Doctor thinks he's worthy of the name or not. The point is whether he's a manifestation of the same entity we know as the Doctor.
Like you I don't necessarily stand by the theory that he is a Doctor Zero, I just think it's worth considering as an option for now.
Alrightmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2013, 23:48
ea91
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,121
I think GI's mention of "The Valeyard" was a red herring for Classic Who fans to speculate on John Hurt's identity. I don't think he is The Valeyard, it would be too complicated to explain to new viewers (and old, considering he would have apparently regenerated too). Moffat said the 50th will be mostly about looking forward, so I doubt it will centre on a character that only appeared in season 23.
ea91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-05-2013, 01:24
dr_who
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 15
I believe the bbc hint of valeyard was a clue not a red herring. My theory is the Valeyard was probably the one who destroyed gallifrey to end the time war as the Valeyard never died, he became part of the council in classic who. The doctors secret is obviously something that was done by a doctor but not in his name as 11th states, so the Valeyard. Doctor understands it was necessary as spoken by 11th. He is the future incarnation that acted out his own time line. He didn't care so much about destroying gallifrey as the Valeyard is cold, and was going to kill the council before anyway. He took action out of desperation as he knew daleks would not spare him. He blew up Gallifrey to save himself. Valeyard tried to escape gallifreys destruction by stealing the tardis, the 8th dr stopped him but got fatally injured, shortly after the doctor escaped he changed into the 9th doctor. The Valeyard is old because he aged since he was in classic who, he had no more lives. He doesn't live, he was just in the doctors time stream. The Master is probably behind the GI attempts to get in the doctors timestream, I think we well be seeing the return of the Master. I don't know how the bbc will go around that yet.
dr_who is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:12.