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Apple 'among largest tax avoiders in US'


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Old 22-05-2013, 14:17
calico_pie
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Part red herring. Apple are supposedly only declaring a very small revenue to Ireland.

Most of the cash is in 'no fixed abode'. Whether this is in acquiescence with Ireland is open to argument.
I heard one quote that 'below 2% corporation tax' actually means as little as 0.1% tax.
My understanding is that in Ireland, if the company is not Irish, then they are not liable for Irish tax.

Although I'm not quite sure how this is of benefit to Ireland, if the whole idea was to attract foreign companies, charge them a lower rate of tax than other countries, in the theory that the boost to the economy by virtue of their presence in Ireland would outweigh the reduced rate of tax.

Maybe it just works that although they are not liable, they negotiate a ludicrously low rate on a company by company basis.

In short, it seems that most of the UK issues are to do with the Irish system being a bit bonkers.

And the US issue is to do with the US system being so punitive.
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Old 22-05-2013, 14:30
alanwarwic
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they negotiate a ludicrously low rate on a company by company basis...And the US issue is to do with the US system being so punitive.
Nope, Ireland inferring they declare a pitiful amount for the 12.5% Irish rate. There is a distinct difference.

Seems everything is punitive until you get to zero percent.
A prime occupation in zero percent countries is begging.

That belongs to the likes of Sudan where taxes are not 'punitive'. Elsewhere you simply get Islands of convenience.
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Old 22-05-2013, 14:47
calico_pie
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From what I'd read I had the impression that Ireland were open to negotiation, depending on the company. Right or wrong, it makes some practical sense insomuch as the larger the company, the greater the boost to the economy, so the lower the tax rate.

We know the US is complaining that Apple isn't paying enough US tax. (Almost certainly grandstanding).

We know the UK would have a case that Apple isn't paying enough UK tax.

But is there anything to suggest that Ireland have any complaints with Apple for paying less than that 12.5%? Not that I'm aware of.

The US tax system is overly punitive in that (unlike other countries) it taxes money returning to the US that has already been subject to corporation tax in the country the money was generated.

Same question I asked Stiggles:

Do you think profit generated by Apple in the UK should be subject to taxation in:

A. The UK?
B. The US?
C. The UK and the US?

And further:

Do you think any US company should be under obligation to repatriate money generated outside the US, and has been subject to foreign corporation tax, just to have it taxed again in the US?
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Old 22-05-2013, 15:36
Inspiration
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Funny how as soon as Apple are questioned over tax a thread appears here.. yet there appears to be no thread at all discussing Google's tax setup.. even on a day when Ed Miliband was critical of their business practices at a Google PR event today.
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Old 22-05-2013, 15:40
PPhilster
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Funny how as soon as Apple are questioned over tax a thread appears here.. yet there appears to be no thread at all discussing Google's tax setup.. even on a day when Ed Miliband was critical of their business practices at a Google PR event today.
That's because most Apple haters are obsessive lunatics.
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Old 22-05-2013, 15:56
alanwarwic
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That's because most Apple haters are obsessive lunatics.
Yet no one is defending Google. Nothing obsessive there then?

And so to debate is to only like or hate?
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:02
calico_pie
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No-one is defending Apple either.
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:22
PPhilster
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Yet no one is defending Google. Nothing obsessive there then?

And so to debate is to only like or hate?
How can there be "obsession" in an act that you say doesn't exist?

One doesn't have to defend Google as a prerequisite to obsessively attacking Apple.
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:30
alanwarwic
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s a prerequisite to obsessively attacking Apple.
Read the posts to see the most 'obsessive'. You might even see that Apple has been defended numerous times.

And has anyone called for a boycott like with Starbucks?
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:42
rosetech
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Funny how as soon as Apple are questioned over tax a thread appears here.. yet there appears to be no thread at all discussing Google's tax setup.. even on a day when Ed Miliband was critical of their business practices at a Google PR event today.
Google have nothing to answer, as the head of HRMC indicated the laws on taxation are made by MPs. If the MPs believe they are insufficient then they are at liberty to change them.Simply stating I would like you to pay more tax as you are a big company is not in keeping with the present legislation.
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:48
alanwarwic
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To me, those calling for lower taxes for the rich were actually encouraging tax dodging.
Google and Apple are as immoral as those same politicians half condoning it.

Those sycophants claiming lower taxes mean more tax income are now shown as the most immoral.
There is plenty to answer all round.
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Old 22-05-2013, 16:56
calico_pie
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Read the posts to see the most 'obsessive'. You might even see that Apple has been defended numerous times.

And has anyone called for a boycott like with Starbucks?
What Starbucks did in the UK is completely different to what the US Senate are accusing Apple of doing.

Could you please say which post or posts are "defending Apple".
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:02
kidspud
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To me, those calling for lower taxes for the rich were actually encouraging tax dodging.
Google and Apple are as immoral as those same politicians half condoning it.

Those sycophants claiming lower taxes mean more tax income are now shown as the most immoral.
There is plenty to answer all round.
It is also immoral for governments to raise taxes just to get them out of trouble they caused in the first place. Although I do not condone what these large companies are doing, I also don't like politicians using it as some sort of diversion tactic to help remove the blame for bad decisions from themselves.
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:07
Stiggles
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Funny how as soon as Apple are questioned over tax a thread appears here.. yet there appears to be no thread at all discussing Google's tax setup.. even on a day when Ed Miliband was critical of their business practices at a Google PR event today.
There have been plenty of threads on google, amazon, starbucks etc for months and plenty of whining about it.
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:10
alanwarwic
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.. I also don't like politicians using it as some sort of diversion tactic to help remove the blame for bad decisions from themselves.
Apple and Google pay zero UK tax, and it is called a 'diversion'.
I for one am glad they are all finally being diverted into doing something about it.

And on a google diversion, so far there have been 16 Politics forum threads started on 'Google' (one by me) and only the 1 on 'Apple'.
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:30
kidspud
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Apple and Google pay zero UK tax, and it is called a 'diversion'.
I for one am glad they are all finally being diverted into doing something about it.

And on a google diversion, so far there have been 16 Politics forum threads started on 'Google' (one by me) and only the 1 on 'Apple'.
It is totally within the gift of the politicians to set the tax laws for this country. Both apple and google are not being accused of breaking any laws. It is a political diversion.
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:31
calico_pie
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Alan - what exactly is it you think the US Senate are wanting Apple to do?
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:45
neo_wales
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If a company is based here, have centres of operations etc then they should pay tax on sales/profits generated from the UK operation, seems the right thing to do IMHO. Don't forget the government get 20% on the retail goods sold via VAT.
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Old 22-05-2013, 17:59
alanwarwic
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Alan - what exactly is it you think the US Senate are wanting Apple to do?
Have you ever thought that corporation tax actually promotes investment?

A major problem on this one might be the non spending which is quite recessionary in itself.
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:05
calico_pie
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Have you ever thought that corporation tax actually promotes investment?

A major problem on this one might be the non spending which is quite recessionary in itself.
Alan, I took the time to post fairly lengthy posts earlier on. But its almost as though you have completely ignored them.

The issue isn't about whether or not Apple (or anyone) should pay corporation tax.

In the case of the US Senate case, its about whether or not US companies generating revenue overseas should be obligated to repatriate overseas profit that they have already paid corporation tax in the country of origin and pay a second lot of corporation tax in the US.

An arrangement that is unique to the US.

What is it that you think I'm saying?

Because it seems from your posts that you're a bit confused about what I'm saying.
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:19
Stiggles
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Or is that just some daft thing to throw in there because, y'know, its about Apple.
There have been threads about google, amazon, starbucks etc etc on this same situation, yet you seem think apple are immune to criticism and shouldn't be mentioned.....
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:21
calico_pie
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There have been threads about google, amazon, starbucks etc etc on this same situation, yet you seem think apple are immune to criticism and shouldn't be mentioned.....
Based on what exactly?

That comment was made with specific reference to the line about non spending. Which is odd as I'd be pretty certain Apple are spending a shedload of money in the US.
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:25
alanwarwic
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I'd be pretty certain Apple are spending a shedload of money in the US.
Well I'd be pretty certain that Apple were borrowing a shedload too!

So was that the straw that broke the camel's back?
It certainly raised more than a few eyebrows.
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:27
calico_pie
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Duo post
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:28
rosetech
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Apple and Google pay zero UK tax, and it is called a 'diversion'.
I for one am glad they are all finally being diverted into doing something about it.

And on a google diversion, so far there have been 16 Politics forum threads started on 'Google' (one by me) and only the 1 on 'Apple'.
Google pay UK tax just not the amount the government want them to i.e. on sales. Google also provide free assistance to schools, businesses and developers in the UK. They have also helped the Government to regenerate the UK technology credentials through the tech hub.
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