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What a sad ending to a great 50 years


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Old 21-05-2013, 23:31
baconroll
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Yes, I'm talking about Saturday's abomination. Being old enough to remember and enjoy the original Dr Who episodes I tuned in Saturday night to watch only the 2nd episode of this whole season and oh how I wish I hadn't. Why oh why oh why do writers feel the need to tinker with old and classic material (and the last two Star Trek films are included in this) and make up some ridiculous link and completely flush away the original memories of past episodes and story arcs. Are they that hard up for ideas of their own that they cannot write original stories? I didn't want to see Clara interacting with William Hartnell. So why did we? Because SM thought it would be fun to make us all think that this pointless character was there all along (yes the last 50 years) by inserting some cheesy conversation and clips of her with the other doctors which looked really amateurish. How insulting and arrogant of him to think by giving us 5 mins or so of these poorly executed clips that we would be brainwashed into believing that Clara was the pivotal character for all these years. What about all the other wonderful assistants that have gone before her? What an insult to their memories. I'm sorry, I know that most of you on here loved it and I respect that I really do. But I did not. When it first 'came back' with CE and Rose I thought what a great re-boot. The stories were original with only the odd mention here and there to the Dr's previous incarnations. But other the last 2 years SM has tried to be so clever that in my opinion he has failed and just got himself caught up in this long convoluted story arc (Lost comes to mind here) which seems to be going nowhere except off the edge of a cliff. Blink for me was SM's finest moment and I could reel of half a dozen more episodes with RD at the helm which I thought were electrifying and original. But please SM - leave the past alone. Respect the original series. Don't try to change history just for the sake of story writing.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:33
Dr. Linus
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I think you've misunderstood the episode. Clara didn't change anything. The Great Intelligence changed things and Clara set it right again. She almost never interacted with the Doctor over the years, just stopped the Great Intelligence from getting to him. Nothing in the past has changed.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:38
ea91
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But please SM - leave the past alone. Respect the original series. Don't try to change history just for the sake of story writing.
That's the whole reason Clara went into the Doctor's timestream - so that history isn't changed. She didn't stick around long enough to change any Classic Who history, and clearly only played a significant part in the Asylum and the Snowmen. Reading your concluding sentences, I can only conclude that Moffat did exactly that - respected the original series, referenced it so that it isn't ignored (like it is in most NuWho episodes), and left it unchanged (by the GI).
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:39
bp2
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How is it an ending? Your title is wrong, you are judging the 50th anniversary celebrations solely on the final episode of series 7.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:41
Pull2Open
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Well, I'm old enough to remember watching the original series too and I thought it was bloody great!
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:45
TEDR
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I didn't want to see Clara interacting with William Hartnell. So why did we?
I fully endorse this as the correct test to apply.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:46
rua is god
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Why oh why oh why do writers feel the need to tinker with old and classic material (and the last two Star Trek films are included in this) and make up some ridiculous link and completely flush away the original memories of past episodes and story arcs. Are they that hard up for ideas of their own that they cannot write original stories? I didn't want to see Clara interacting with William Hartnell. So why did we?
Do you mind if I ask what original memories of the past were flushed away?

In my opinion having Clara interact with the First Doctor did not change one single thing about the old episodes, she was just fixing what the Great Intelligence had messed up in the storyline to ensure the Doctor's history stayed as it was.

I would also say the story was quite original, it's never been done before and no ideas were retread, they never used any major story points from previous stories either so i'm interested in where the whole "cannot write original stories" comes from.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:51
platelet
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Yes, I'm talking about Saturday's abomination. Being old enough to remember and enjoy the original Dr Who episodes I tuned in Saturday night to watch only the 2nd episode of this whole season and oh how I wish I hadn't. Why oh why oh why do writers feel the need to tinker with old and classic material (and the last two Star Trek films are included in this) and make up some ridiculous link and completely flush away the original memories of past episodes and story arcs. Are they that hard up for ideas of their own that they cannot write original stories? I didn't want to see Clara interacting with William Hartnell. So why did we? Because SM thought it would be fun to make us all think that this pointless character was there all along (yes the last 50 years) by inserting some cheesy conversation and clips of her with the other doctors which looked really amateurish. How insulting and arrogant of him to think by giving us 5 mins or so of these poorly executed clips that we would be brainwashed into believing that Clara was the pivotal character for all these years. What about all the other wonderful assistants that have gone before her? What an insult to their memories. I'm sorry, I know that most of you on here loved it and I respect that I really do. But I did not. When it first 'came back' with CE and Rose I thought what a great re-boot. The stories were original with only the odd mention here and there to the Dr's previous incarnations. But other the last 2 years SM has tried to be so clever that in my opinion he has failed and just got himself caught up in this long convoluted story arc (Lost comes to mind here) which seems to be going nowhere except off the edge of a cliff. Blink for me was SM's finest moment and I could reel of half a dozen more episodes with RD at the helm which I thought were electrifying and original. But please SM - leave the past alone. Respect the original series. Don't try to change history just for the sake of story writing.
TL;DR
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:53
DiscoP
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I keep reading on these forums about what an evil swine Moffat is for not paying enough respect to the past and referencing the classic series enough in the 50th year (even though there's been plenty of references throughout his time as showrunner). He incorporate as many previous Doctors as he can in the latest episode, in the only possible for at least three of them and now he gets accused of being arrogant for doing that. Poor guy, just cannot win.
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Old 21-05-2013, 23:57
ea91
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I keep reading on these forums about what an evil swine Moffat is for not paying enough respect to the past and referencing the classic series enough in the 50th year (even though there's been plenty of references throughout his time as showrunner). He incorporate as many previous Doctors as he can in the latest episode, in the only possible for at least three of them and now he gets accused of being arrogant for doing that. Poor guy, just cannot win.
True story. Moffat incorporated Classic Who into the episode better than RTD could ever dream of. The OP is either RTD or a troll.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:08
Dr. Linus
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Also:

I didn't want to see Clara interacting with William Hartnell. So why did we?
There is a difference between "I" and "we". As you say, YOU didn't want it, and WE saw it. I loved the Hartnell scene and thought it was a highlight of the episode, maybe even the series.

And I dislike the air of superiority you project due to having watched the series for longer than other people. We're all fans and all our individual wants and needs count, no matter how long we've been watching it. Just because it's not physically possible for some of us to have watched the series from the beginning doesn't mean we love and understand the show any less.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:13
james2018
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I think that Doctor Who is not for you.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:14
DiscoP
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True story. Moffat incorporated Classic Who into the episode better than RTD could ever dream of. The OP is either RTD or a troll.
Definitely not RTD. RTD love's Moffat's work
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:16
Dr. Linus
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Definitely not RTD. RTD love's Moffat's work
And vice versa! People weirdly seem to assume that neither of them can enjoy another writer's take on something.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:17
codename_47
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Definitely not RTD. RTD love's Moffat's work
As Moffat loves his.

In fact the whole fandom split between their eras is just that, fan created.
The two writers themselves probably have a good laugh about it and work out how they can both wind up the "fans" even more!
("more gay references Russell?" "Yes Please Steven! That'll set them off!" )
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:22
JohnnyForget
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I am sure that I love the Classic series, and the Hartnell era in particular, as much as the OP. However, unlike the OP, in no way do I think that last Saturday's finale undermined the Classic series - quite the reverse, in fact. I love the little nods to Classic Who, especially Clara's interaction with the First Doctor.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:26
codename_47
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Though you have to wonder how the entire show would be different if he took his original intended TARDIS instead of the one he ended up with....

The Chameleon circuit might work for one
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:26
DiscoP
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And vice versa! People weirdly seem to assume that neither of them can enjoy another writer's take on something.
As Moffat loves his.

In fact the whole fandom split between their eras is just that, fan created.
The two writers themselves probably have a good laugh about it and work out how they can both wind up the "fans" even more!
("more gay references Russell?" "Yes Please Steven! That'll set them off!" )
While my personal preference is for Moffat's take on Doctor Who rather than RTD's it hasn't stopped me enjoying either era and I think that we're all so very lucky as fans of the show that two of most talented and well respected writers of a generation also happen to be Doctor Who fans. I certainly don't envy whoever will eventually take over from Moffat.
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:27
platelet
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Though you have to wonder how the entire show would be different if he took his original intended TARDIS instead of the one he ended up with....

The Chameleon circuit might work for one
Forget the retconning - the Tardis chose him
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Old 22-05-2013, 00:49
Moboloco
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You should, It's always nice to read peoples comments that have stuck with the show for as long as the thread starter has. Its nice to see how they have seen the show evolve into what it is today. Chances are without people like him we wouldn't have a DW show today.
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Old 22-05-2013, 01:21
JAS84
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Though you have to wonder how the entire show would be different if he took his original intended TARDIS instead of the one he ended up with....

The Chameleon circuit might work for one
So would the navigation system, which means he would've got Ian and Barbara home at the first attempt. Thus in The Daleks, either the Doctor never shows up and the Daleks win, or without Ian and Barbara there, he gets exterminated.
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Old 22-05-2013, 01:33
TEDR
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You should, It's always nice to read peoples comments that have stuck with the show for as long as the thread starter has. Its nice to see how they have seen the show evolve into what it is today. Chances are without people like him we wouldn't have a DW show today.
But isn't listening to self-annointed long-time fans sometimes much like listening to your racist grandfather complain about immigration?

And, yes, I mean in the general case. As a counterpoint to your claim that "it's always nice to read..." (emphasis added). The comment isn't about or directed at the originating poster.
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Old 22-05-2013, 01:38
Pull2Open
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You should, It's always nice to read peoples comments that have stuck with the show for as long as the thread starter has. Its nice to see how they have seen the show evolve into what it is today. Chances are without people like him we wouldn't have a DW show today.
But isn't listening to self-annointed long-time fans sometimes much like listening to your racist grandfather complain about immigration?

And, yes, I mean in the general case. As a counterpoint to your claim that "it's always nice to read..." (emphasis added). The comment isn't about or directed at the originating poster.
Speaking as a long term fan (becoming hooked mid Pertwee) I would say that fans like the OP are very bad for the shows future. Some people just don't like change, even if it means survival!
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Old 22-05-2013, 01:45
Dr. Linus
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Speaking as a long term fan (becoming hooked mid Pertwee) I would say that fans like the OP are very bad for the shows future. Some people just don't like change, even if it means survival!
And it's important to remember that just as some aspects of the early years are lost on younger fans, and older fans, having grown up during those years, do have a greater understanding of that era... the same applies the other way round. The younger viewers do have a somewhat greater grasp of the new series and aspects of it that don't resonate with older fans.

No one can assess such a long programme as a whole and claim to know best, and we all have something to add.
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Old 22-05-2013, 01:56
DiscoP
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I do think a misunderstanding about the plot has led to the OP's dislike of the latest episode though (and also a misunderstanding of the Star Trek films). As far as I see it, everything that happened in Classic Who still happened but the GI tried to change things so Clara went back to keep things in track and prevent it. The same with Star Wars (although I've not seen the latest film yet so no spoilers please) but from the first one, again everything that happened in the original Star Trek still happened but we are now seeing things happening in a parallel universe. I don't really see how any of these things are re-working or tampering with what we have already seen. If anything they are just adding other layers to it.
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