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Did the future Clara events have to happen before the Doctor met Oswin and V Clara?


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Old 22-05-2013, 18:29
alixfowler
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Sorry I know that sounds totally obvious but I am just trying to clarify what happened. We know of course Clara splits herself but for the Doctor to meet Oswin and V Clara does the future not need to have happened for this to happen? Does that make any sense?

Can someone explain it to me?
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Old 22-05-2013, 18:34
James Frederick
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Sorry I know that sounds totally obvious but I am just trying to clarify what happened. We know of course Clara splits herself but for the Doctor to meet Oswin and V Clara does the future not need to have happened for this to happen? Does that make any sense?

Can someone explain it to me?
Timey wimey

Sometimes The Doctor encounters the repercussions of his actions (or actions that happened because he got involved with that person) before the event or even before he met that person
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:13
Ethel_Fred
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It's certain that The Doctor won't meet a Clara in his personal future as he now knows why the Claras exist. Unless of course the plot requires it
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:28
Alrightmate
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Theoretically she didn't need to jump into the timestream did she?

Because if you apply the Bill and Ted rules of time travel, if the Doctor already experienced Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara as echoes of the real Clara, then she doesn't need to bother going into the timestream. Because if it already happened..... then it happened.

Et voila, just like this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NjDHiLzpZc

See? It works.
Perfect.
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:33
kyllerbuzcut
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In Bill and Ted they DO go back and do stuff though
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:42
alixfowler
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Ah ok that does make some sort of sense to me but I just needed to clarify things.
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:45
ea91
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Theoretically she didn't need to jump into the timestream did she?
Yeeah she did.
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Old 22-05-2013, 19:54
Alrightmate
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Yeeah she did.
Why?
If she didn't, Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara still happened.
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:03
F1etch
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Theoretically she didn't need to jump into the timestream did she?

Because if you apply the Bill and Ted rules of time travel, if the Doctor already experienced Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara as echoes of the real Clara, then she doesn't need to bother going into the timestream. Because if it already happened..... then it happened.

Et voila, just like this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NjDHiLzpZc

See? It works.
Perfect.
But does the fact the Doctor already experienced Clara, fractured in time, not mean she HAS to go into his stream? Like if you read it in a book....
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:04
James Frederick
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Why?
If she didn't, Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara still happened.
It would have caused a paradox where they didn't and then The Doctor wouldn't have gone looking for her in the first place
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:04
Whovian1109
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Wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey.
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:08
Alrightmate
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It would have caused a paradox where they didn't and then The Doctor wouldn't have gone looking for her in the first place
So?

What I mean is when people say a paradox will happen. What exactly would that entail?

I do know why it was inevitable that she went back no matter what. But I'm just testing the theory to see what people think.
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:10
James Frederick
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So?

What I mean is when people say a paradox will happen. What exactly would that entail?
This.
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:10
Alrightmate
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:16
James Frederick
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That is it with Timey Wimey though

The very fact The Doctor went to Asylum is because Dalek Clara was there.

The only reason Dalek Clara was there is because she was waiting to help him from been killed there.
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Old 22-05-2013, 20:37
Alrightmate
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That is it with Timey Wimey though

The very fact The Doctor went to Asylum is because Dalek Clara was there.

The only reason Dalek Clara was there is because she was waiting to help him from been killed there.
I was thinking that theoretically speaking she didn't need to jump into the timeline because if Victorian and Dalek Clara existed, then she didn't need to.

However, the thing is that I think that when most people think of time travel stories they think of time as a long line of before, now, and the future, and in that context how events of the past will affect events in the present and the future.

But I think you've got to think of it the other way around too.
i.e. How events from the present or the future affect events in the past.
So if you spin it around. The Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara exist because Clara had jumped into the timestream. It happened.
As opposed to; As Clara jumped into the timestream Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara existed.

Someone could say but if Clara had thought about it and decided not to jump into the timestream then Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara still existed anyway...then you would say "But she did".

Going back to the Bill and Ted keys scene. Bill couldn't just have the idea alone of stealing Ted's dads keys and they would just magically appear. If by some means in the future they didn't bother to go back and do something with those keys, then they would have looked behind that sign and the keys would not have magically appeared there, even if they did come up with the idea.
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Old 22-05-2013, 21:46
alixfowler
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I suppose it's like Hermione's Time Turner in The Prisoner of Azkaban as she said when you go back in time you cannot see your other version or you will damage time or something like that.

Anyway I was just asking as it makes the Snowmen's story different depending on which side you take. If you believe Clara was there (without modern Clara) then it looks like she is helping the Doctor out of the goodness of her heart but if Clara was there because of modern Clara then it seems like she was just hanging around waiting for him which just seems odd
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Old 22-05-2013, 21:50
ea91
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Why?
If she didn't, Victorian Clara and Dalek Clara still happened.
No they wouldn't have, that's the point. Just because Moffat already wrote the second half of the story, shouldn't give him the right to discard the necessary first half. Like Jenny disappearing in Trenzalore, Oswin would have disappeared from the Asylum, were you not paying attention?
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Old 24-05-2013, 12:17
JAS84
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It's a stable time loop that averts a paradox.
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Old 24-05-2013, 12:50
Corwin
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No they wouldn't have, that's the point. Just because Moffat already wrote the second half of the story, shouldn't give him the right to discard the necessary first half. Like Jenny disappearing in Trenzalore, Oswin would have disappeared from the Asylum, were you not paying attention?
One thing I noticed when rewatching that part of the episode.


If Jenny disappears as the Doctor never saved her life and Strax reverts to a typical Sontaran as he had never met the Doctor.


Why doesn't Vastra revert to the Human killing revenge machine she was before she met the Doctor?
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Old 24-05-2013, 12:57
Alrightmate
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No they wouldn't have, that's the point. Just because Moffat already wrote the second half of the story, shouldn't give him the right to discard the necessary first half. Like Jenny disappearing in Trenzalore, Oswin would have disappeared from the Asylum, were you not paying attention?
Weren't you?
A few posts above this one it's obvious that I was asking a rhetorical question.

But even so, it appears that you didn't understand what I was saying anyway when the point I made was that as we actually saw Victorian and Dalek Clara, they existed. There's no 'They wouldn't', because they did from our perspective as the viewer.

I think it's fair to examine the time travel theories within the show. It's not always the case that just because the show states something that it would actually work in a logical and elegant manner.
It's good to understand how when a time travel element is introduced to a story whether it would actually work or not from time to time, because it will help people have a clearer understanding of the time travel stories in general.
But I don't know if we're helping the thread starter or if we're making it more confusing.
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Old 24-05-2013, 13:16
johnnysaucepn
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Why doesn't Vastra revert to the Human killing revenge machine she was before she met the Doctor?
She might well have done - the changes kind of phased in gradually, perhaps she was just the last to revert. But more specifically, I think she only went on the rampage originally because of the perceived 'attack' on her home. I don't think she would just attack humans or Sontarans on sight.
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Old 24-05-2013, 13:17
Alrightmate
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One thing I noticed when rewatching that part of the episode.


If Jenny disappears as the Doctor never saved her life and Strax reverts to a typical Sontaran as he had never met the Doctor.


Why doesn't Vastra revert to the Human killing revenge machine she was before she met the Doctor?
Another question, which I believe actually is a real plothole, if Strax converts back to a typical Sontaran why would he even be there to attack Vastra at all? Surely he would have never been brought back to life after the events in A Good Man Goes to War. How could he have had any involvement in the Paternoster Gang for him to even end up on Trenzalore about to attack Vastra?
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Old 24-05-2013, 13:22
johnnysaucepn
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Another question, which I believe actually is a real plothole, if Strax converts back to a typical Sontaran why would he even be there to attack Vastra at all? Surely he would have never been brought back to life after the events in A Good Man Goes to War. How could he have had any involvement in the Paternoster Gang for him to even end up on Trenzalore about to attack Vastra?
In the end, there's no point trying to make sense of causality when time is being changed all over the place. The decision to have Jenny disappear and Strax revert are artistic ones - illustrations of the various ways in which the Doctor has had impact on the people around him, and how their lives would be different (or cut short) if he hadn't been.
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Old 24-05-2013, 14:52
grizzlyvamp
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One thing I noticed when rewatching that part of the episode.


If Jenny disappears as the Doctor never saved her life and Strax reverts to a typical Sontaran as he had never met the Doctor.


Why doesn't Vastra revert to the Human killing revenge machine she was before she met the Doctor?
Because events were slowly being undone - it wasn't happening all at once, obviously all this went on before the Great Intelligence got to the events of Vastra and remember love is a pwerful emotion it would leave echos suffice to say wibbley wobbly timey wimey covers this. As to Clara going in she had to go to ensure that she was in the Asylum and in Victorian London, if anyone was listening Vastra says how the Doctor had died at the Asylum and went on to dying in Victorian London, ie Clara had to step in so that the established line of events could occur as we saw them. Again with the Ted and Bill clip they would have traveled back in time to steal the keys so that they could find them. Paradoxes are a right headache and Clara stabilised the paradox and created a loop which begins and ends with the events of The Name of the Doctor .
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