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The End Of Time, in hindsight.

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Old 25-05-2013, 10:38
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Its being repeated on watch today.

I remember thinking it was crap at the time, but I believe its even worse than I first remember.
What were the most cringeworthy parts for you?

These are the episodes which made me so so glad RTD was leaving the show behind.
Self indulgent crap.

The regeneration scene in part 2 was woeful!
Im not sure they could have made it any worse.

Thoughts ?
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Old 25-05-2013, 10:40
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Love every single second of it, it was over the top and wonderful, we had timelords, we had all my fave companions, it made me squeal, laugh and cry.
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Old 25-05-2013, 10:59
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Brilliant episode, OTT yes, and all the better for it.

That was the era when I really felt something for the show and the characters, I couldn't wait for the next episode.

I can understand why many dislike it, but to me it's a marvellous mix of excitement, fun, sadness and celebration.

It also contains some superb scenes, the conversation with Wilf and the Doctor in the cafe being one of my favourites.
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Old 25-05-2013, 11:18
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I enjoyed it. It wasn't exactly a fantastic and clever story, and it was often more than a bit silly, but it was thoroughly enjoyable.
...much like Victory of the Daleks.
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Old 25-05-2013, 11:30
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I enjoyed it. It wasn't exactly a fantastic and clever story, and it was often more than a bit silly, but it was thoroughly enjoyable.
...much like Victory of the Daleks.
It was absolutely right as a complete celebration of the previous few years for those involved. There are always those threads that are focused on: "yes, but what happened to....?" When there is eventually a story that shows what happened to everyone, people complain. Maybe there are a group of viewers that just like stories to be open-ended so that they speculate and what they are really fans of is speculation.

I've never, ever read the end of the story and regeneration as being as simplistic as some like to think. To me, it's always been that the Doctor had decided that he had lived too long and this was going to be 'it', hence getting back to the Tardis to make sure it wasn't left sitting around for someone else. I think the preceeding stories were leading to a final end for the Doctor (yes, we knew that there was going to be another Doctor from media items). If you imagine those stories at a time before the fact that someone had sneezed on set was instantly broadcast across the internet, then think of what the 'your song must end soon' and everything else was suggesting. The end of the Doctor, surely?

Then at the last moment, he realised that he didn't want to die/go (not just his present regeneration, but his whole being) and so regenerated instead. That's the trouble with all of the forums/internet news and the rest of it: you can no longer accept the stories as they were meant because there is just so much forward information available.

But, like I've said above, this is how I (and I know some others) read the stories and others still are free to read them at a more basic level and hate them. It would be a shame if we all thought the same.
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Old 25-05-2013, 11:52
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The main problem with the End of Time repeats on Watch are the ad breaks, it makes the already way too long, more endings than Lord of the Rings, ending even longer, so it takes about half of the episode to actually get to the regeneration.

Trying to pretend that there was some deeper ultimate end of the Doctor suggested rather than just the end of the 10th is just making excuses to try and justify how self-indulgent that ending for Tennant and Davies was. The Doctor choosing to die rather than regenerate would be like suicide and he didn't seem like a great fan of that idea when the Master refused to regenerate. There was no deeper subtext, it was just a bloated ending that decided to tie up everything from RTD's era, but took up more time in the episode than a lot of people liked.
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Old 25-05-2013, 11:52
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RTD met with Moff to discuss EoT because he wanted it to be a wrap to his Daleks v Timelords story and so that Moff could plan for series 5. The Beeb asked Rustle to alter the story because they had 'big plans' for the Daleks. As it turns out, their big plan was the redesign into the NPD's. With hindsight, the BBloodyC should have let Lord T Davies of Londiff write and deliver the true epic showdown to his tenure that he and we deserved.

On the whole, I quite liked EoT n spite of that. The 'Knock Four Times' thing with Wilf was one of the best surprises Doctor Who has delivered. After all the speculation about what this would mean, it turned out to be a little old man knocking on a glass door. Still brings a tear to my eye that does...
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Old 25-05-2013, 12:00
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I enjoyed it, purely for seeing past companions, Wilf getting some screen time and a lot of the acting in scenes like the cafe one.

But the story wasn't good, and I don't like the Master, although John Simm is a good actor he is not good in this and I find him annoying and hammy.
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Old 25-05-2013, 12:13
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I think it wasn't that great. Part two was definitely better and the bit where he saw his companions was wonderful.
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Old 25-05-2013, 12:43
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I watched it last weekend with my niece and nephew, they were watching it for the first time and really thought it was so much better than I'd remembered. They loved it and the master and thought they would never get over DT leaving ... Until we got though the first ten mins of The Eleventh Hour and it was David Who?
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Old 25-05-2013, 13:35
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I thought it was one of the most puerile, cringe-worthy stories of the RTD era. Up there with Love & Monsters and Fear Her.

Daft plot, terrible special effects, hammy acting, just plain bad.

I liked the little farewell we got to all of Ten's companions at the end, and the scene in the café with Wilfred was nice, but neither of those were enough to enhance my overall enjoyment of it significantly.

I have no intention to watch it again.
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Old 25-05-2013, 14:37
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While I admit that I like this story for being one of RTD's more solid finales, I still have a few issues with it

I don't like how regeneration was dealt with. I can understand the Doctor not liking it, but I felt Ten agonized ove it too much. I don't think regeneration stories should be so much about regeneration, but the events leading up to it. Regeneration stories, while sad, should ultimately be okay; we lose one Doctor, but gain another. Because regeneration played a large part of the story, Ten was allowed to talk about it, and everything he said painted it in a horrible light. I think because of this, this allowed some fans to convince themselves that Eleven wasn't the Doctor, and that he killed Ten. While I'm sure these people would always be there, the number could have been lower.

Another issue I have is the companion goodbyes. One of my biggest complaints about Series 4 was that every companion RTD had created was brought back for one big fanfest, which I think came at the expense of the Series 4 finale. While nowhere near that level, we still ended up spending ten minutes saying goodbye to characters who we said goodbye to five episodes ago. Both are treated as massive things, which I feel take away from each other because of that. I can understand RTD wanting to honor Ten's life, but I feel that could have been done in a much more subtle way; When Four and Five died, we saw them both reflect on the foes and friends they had made during thier lives. It was a simple and effective method to look back on their eras, without dragging the story on. When it comes for Eleven to leave, I'd like for something like that to happen.

So there, while "The End of Time" is a good story, I can't enjoy too much because of the levels of melodrama that are not good from a meta point,of view, and adding more time than needed.
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Old 25-05-2013, 14:55
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The Assorted Reasons why I don't like The End of Time: Parts 1, 2 and any other related content

- There was so much promise, but very little delivery of that promise. The mentions of the 'sainted physician' at the start and the inclusion of the Ood were intriguing elements, but none of them were explored or explained. I can forgive one or two not being relevant, but when they all are it screams of 'style over substance'.

- Comparing the ensemble good guys between Journey's End and The End of Time: Part 2. The former gave us all of the Children of Time, the latter gave us The Doctor, Wilf and the Vinvocci.

- Donna Noble. Her story came to a heartbreaking end along with Series 4. After so much promise of a big role to play in Part One, she was totally sidelined in Part 2 and put to sleep in an alleyway. There was really little point in bringing her back, and it just served as a massive tease for nothing. They teased us further with her surname becoming "Temple Noble"... if that isn't something to do with 'Timelords' down the line then it's just a massive disservice to the scrutinising fans

- The Master. I really don't like John Simm's take on The Master. He can act, but he delivers The Master as more stupid than insane. Again, despite so much promise, his character mostly disappointed in this story. Even his comeback was a let down - the interesting mystery woman who picked up his ring turns out to be a complete nobody, and the 'potions of Saxon' made this more like Harry Potter for a moment. And seeing your villain in oversized drag is not the way to go for a 'final showdown'.

- The Timelords. As a Nu-Who kid who never had the joy of seeing Doctor Who as a child (as it was never on), this was the first Timelord story I was subjected to. And what a disappointment it was. Timothy Dalton was brilliant, but the Timelords needed to be set up as a greater threat in the final story, and given more to do than stand around for the final five minutes looking "noble and resplendent". The Master shouldn't have been so prevalent in Part One me thinks.

- Wasted star power. Claire Bloom, June Whitfield, Timothy Dalton, Catherine Tate, Bernard Cribbins, John Simm, David Tennant. How could a line-up like give us what we had?!

- The cliffhanger. The bit in the middle was just ludicrous... given how seriously the story was being taken before it aired, it was an embarrassing watch by this point.

- The Immortality Gate. This sounded like something very interesting, having been previously referenced in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith. Alas, it was just something else that turned out to be a let down.

- The Horde of Travesties et al. We were teased with all of these things descending upon the world. All we ever saw was Gallifrey falling from the sky - given the nature of The Stolen Earth, this just ended up looking like a poor mans version of that story..we could only afford one planet in the budget this time. Seriously, we got mentions of Daleks, The Nightmare Child, and so on... this story could have really been something if only we'd seen such horrors even briefly.

- The regeneration. I love me a bit of sentimentality, but this went so overboard. The final words of The Tenth Doctor bordered on breaking the fourth wall, as if Tennant was saying them. It was so uninspired.

- The Ninth Doctor. A personal one, but I really wish they'd made a small reference to him at the end of this era. They had the room for one too... "I bet you're gonna have a really great year". That line SO should have been "I bet this year's gonna be...fantastic!".

There were things to commend in this story as well (the cafe scene for example), but I consider Part One to be the second-worst episode of Nu-Who (after TDTWatW) and Part Two to also be massively disappointing
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Old 25-05-2013, 14:57
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It was amazing.
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Old 25-05-2013, 15:19
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I loved it
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Old 25-05-2013, 15:22
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I think it is a unique story in that while the actual 'plot' of the episode is fantastic (return of the Master, The Doctor's final battle with the Time Lords, etc), but the only problem is that RTD gets the story out of the way quickly, and then spends the rest of the episode on self-indulgent nonsense. I think the main factor for this was that this was RTD's last episode as well as David Tennant's.

When Christopher Eccleston left, there wasn't a big deal made about it. His final episode was focused on the plot of the story itself rather than the regeneration at the end of it. When the regeneration scene finally happened, the Doctor was not upset in the slightest, and the next episode makes it absolutely clear that this is indeed the same character we have been watching. Interesting to note that both Eccleston's finale and Tennant's first episode are both written by RTD.

Compare that to Tennant's final episode, in which RTD tries his best to make clear that it won't be the same character after the regeneration. RTD resolves the plot of the episode quickly and then has the Doctor go on a series of pointless goodbyes to his former companions, some of whom he had already said his goodbyes to, and others who he sees again after his regeneration. The concept of regeneration was originally devised in order to keep the same character when the actor leaves, without the inconvenience of having to find an actor who looks and sounds like the last bloke. RTD completely butchered the concept of regeneration, by implying that the Doctor actually dies, and that his successor is an entirely new character. Thankfully, Moffat cancels out the RetCon immediately in the next episode.

The fact that this would be Tennant's was last episode gave RTD the means to be as self-indulgent as possible. Had Tennant decided to stay on for another season under Stephen Moffat, or had he left at the end of Series 4, so it would be a new actor who had only just joined the show who would not leave so soon, it would have been far more difficult for RTD to be so self-indulgent with his final episode. He probably would have put far more importance into the plot of the story.

Before anyone accuses me of being an RTD hater, I should point out that I thought that Part 1 of 'The End of Time' was fantastic (with the exception of that Godawful 'when I change, it feels like dying' line.), and the first half of part 2 was good as well.
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Old 25-05-2013, 15:28
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Awful, nonsensical plot.

Why do the Time Lords rely on premonitions? They've mastered time travel!
How does the mystery woman appear to Wilf? And, er, why? What purpose does it serve?
Why doesn't Rassilon blast The Doctor with his glove when he's dilly-dallying over who to shoot?

Reading The Writer's Tale is fascinating as RTD admits his run out of ideas and then bungs a few things onto the page and just keeps on adding to them, despite the fact that the only thing he seems to want to write is the over-indulgent epilogue. The Time Lords coming back is built up to be monumental, but they're disposed off as soon as they arrive.

There's only one bit I really like, and that's the Doctor getting to his feet and hearing the 4 knocks. As soon as he gets into his TARDIS to say goodbye, we're back in overblown nonsense. Why is Ten so distraught about the prospect of regeneration? His feelings on it are completely at odds with all of the other Doctors.

Journey's End was a much better finale to the era than this.
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Old 25-05-2013, 16:06
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He doesn't want to go, and dreads his regeneration, but once it's happened, it's obvious he's gotten over it.
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Old 25-05-2013, 16:26
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The End Of Time was a horrible horrible episode

Everything I hated about RTD's Who all wrapped up in a pretty bow
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Old 25-05-2013, 16:33
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You see, I'm a little hacked off about this. I wasn't at the time, I had my issues with the episode but to me it was the end of the era with RTD, I could understand that there was an emotional farewell to many of the characters from the era and for me it closed the story.

But now, it seems likely that in the 50th anniversary we are going to revisit the Time War and by the sounds of it wanting CE involved looks like it is going to drag back up characters such as Rose.
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Old 25-05-2013, 18:06
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Sorry, VERY long post. My thoughts on this

The silver cloak wasn't my cup of tea. Right from the beginning I'm not in on the joke. Wilf does a little dance (not unfunny) and they all give him a round of applause ( ). It's all "Wahey!" and "Behave!" and pinching the doctor's bottom. They're inches away from making a 'Wet Paint' joke, like they're auditioning for the Beano. Fine if you like that sort of thing, but in Doctor Who I'm used to witty dialogue and generally more clever humour and this is a bit too broad for me.

The reason it's there, of course, is to lighten the tone for Christmas, but it's also eating up vital screentime for the masses and masses of plot we've got to come. The whole of 'Part 1' has the essence of faffing around on the day before an exam when you should be knuckling down and laying the groundwork and that was supposed to be the "Planet Of The Dead"'s job anyway. If we on this forum agree on anything, it's that scheduling-impacting-on-storyline is a bad idea. It'd be much better to have moved The Waters Of Mars/The End Of Time to slightly earlier in the year, add some tinsel to The Eleventh Hour and make that the Christmas special with the much lighter tone of 'post-regeneration rather than pre-regeneration' that made The Christmas Invasion successful.

Anyway, the main problem of The End Of Time, for me, is that rather than one big plot, there are two huge plots, either of which could have carried two episodes on their own. The return of the Timelords could have carried a 13-episode-series arc of their own, frankly. In the end, they get 10-15 mins to themselves. Part 1 sets up the Master's plan OK, although we're led to believe the Naismiths are the main villains. Again, they could have been fine villains on their own, but once relegated to part of the Master's plan (a plan that the Master has to think up extremely quickly once he’s seen the Immortality gate, which is never as satisfying as saying that it’s a scheme he had been planning for a long time) they’re pretty pointless. It’s one of those plot threads that exists only to get a certain character to a certain location. I don’t like it in the same way people dislike Grandfather from the Rings Of Akhaten (He’s the main villain, except from Page 30 onwards when he suddenly isn’t etc.)

We end Part One with plenty of narrative to be getting on with. We don’t need another sub-plot, let alone the enormity of the Timelords returning. Part 2 could easily have been a 45 minute episode consisting of 22 minutes of the Master’s plan being reversed and 22 minutes of the Doctor saying goodbye, regenerating, whatever. By crowbarring the Timelords into the story, people are suddenly bending over backwards to get them into the plot. How do we get to earth? Quick! Throw a diamond at a picture of the earth ( )! It’s a white point star! This could all have gone into Part 1, but Part 1 had a different plot! The master’s plan took 45 mins to establish and it’s solved within seconds. He starts shouting out potential plot lines (Everything from “Think How you’ll look as me!” to “Take me with you”), you think it’s never going to end.

I have to ask, what exactly are “creatures of consciousness alone” and how do you know if you’re going to turn into one? Has it happened before? If “creation itself ceases to be” as the president claims, then whose consciousness are we talking about? If you are “free from time and cause and effect”, what does that mean? Would the same have happened to the Daleks if they had succeeded with the Reality bomb?

God, I don’t know. I just which they’d chosen one plot and stuck to it.

One other thing.

“my family had contacts. People clever enough to calculate the opposite.” – If that’s not a deus-ex-machina, I don’t know what is. Why didn’t these ‘contacts’ ever try and break her out of prison? And does it make sense that she still has the Master’s imprint over a year after he kissed her?
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Old 25-05-2013, 18:51
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Its being repeated on watch today.

I remember thinking it was crap at the time, but I believe its even worse than I first remember.
What were the most cringeworthy parts for you?

These are the episodes which made me so so glad RTD was leaving the show behind.
Self indulgent crap.

The regeneration scene in part 2 was woeful!
Im not sure they could have made it any worse.

Thoughts ?
Only that I congratulate you for having the stomach to watch it twice.
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Old 25-05-2013, 19:23
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is this the one where he spends half an hour going round saying goodbye to everyone ?
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Old 25-05-2013, 19:30
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It was so bad (imo) that it stank out he Christmas/New Year period. Some of the acting was weak, but so what, the characterisation was poor, so why raise your game? What the Hell was John Simm supposed to do with that version of the Master?

David Tennant is a good actor - I had to remind myself as he sobbed like a child because he was going to die. You'd get more courage in Great Ormond Street Hospital. 900 odd years of life and still whining because he (grudgingly) saved Wilf - who'd helped someone else to be in that position - it was almost offensive. After Rose (shudder) and the behaviour towards Martha, I'd long since given up on liking Ten, but it was such a betrayal of what the Doctor should be, I was actually shocked - I'd watched all that guff just for that climactic moment?

I haven't watched it since it was first broadcast, so my memories of the plot are (finally) beginning to fade. but I know the Time Lords were baddies who wanted a Reality Bomb. Or is that the wrong finale? Well, they were bad, so it made it look as if the Doctor was justified in getting rid of them, instead of having the courage of leaving the (well established) story as it was. The Doctor was blameless! The Time Lords deserved to die! So why the endless moping? Nine managed to man up. However between losing Rose :yawn: and killing his own people, Ten frequently had a face like a smacked arse. Eleven had his moments over the Ponds, but he went away to feel bad for an episode, it wasn't a constant throughout series 7b.

The Master became a Super Hero firing bolts out of his hands. I think he flew, as well, though that could have been a nightmare I had. I know people thought that was rubbish, but it was surely a side effect of all the magic used to bring him back to life. I thought they'd just clone him from his dna on the ring, but no. Apparently his widow never brushed her teeth/washed her mouth in all that time, so they used dna off her lips - against her will. Luckily Mrs Master also had a trick to thwart his resurrection, which is why he was always hungry. And a nutter. Well more of a nutter then usual. He also became everyone in the World, or vice versa. It made no sense at all, but offered the chance to crack a 'Master Race' joke. Ho Ho.

Apparently someone on a forum came up with the reason why Four fell from a great height and regenerated, yet Ten did the same and brushed himself off and kept emoting. I'll bet I wouldn't believe it, though. Also, a mysterious woman showed up to creep out Bernard Cribbins (who was great throughout) - apparently, RTD said it was the Doctor's mother. However it was unexplained in the episode, luckily I didn't care who she was, I can imagine some people being annoyed. I know the resolution was the Master being swept away with the Time Lords, electro hands blazing - what a waste of a magic potion.

I also remember a father/daughter combination that could easily have been written out (they were a little creepy). There were also some brightly coloured spiky coconut people and I can't go on any more, please don't make me...
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Old 25-05-2013, 19:34
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On first watch I thought The End of Time could quite possibly be THE most epic and exciting Doctor Who story of all time. By the third watch that had actually completely changed to Part 1 being one of the worst Doctor Who stories of all time. It's sixty boring minutes of people talking about what might happen in the next seventy-five. :yawn:
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