I hope this image makes it clear for you

Notice to the right of the 'P' the 2 [ and ] keys. Sounds like you're making this up tbh as those are pretty crucial if you're doing any objective c development

I am not making this up, I have no reason to. But I am not going to argue about it with you either.

Square brackets aren't a problem. But the # and Delete keys aren't so obvious for people new to Macs also @ and " are switched on Mac keyboards.

Yeah, the @ and " are like on an American Windows keyboard. As you say, the symbol keys are a bit different. No dedicated # key but a dedicated ~ key.

Where IS the delete key on a Mac?

Fn+Backspace

Ugh. I suppose you get used to it.

Mac keyboards aren't 100% the same globally, he may have something different to you.


Well I've been pretty happy with Windows. I could understand someone making the switch in the XP or Vista era.

OS X doesn't seem that different but there are so many people saying how much better it is (ordinary and tech people) and I do enjoy my iPad and iPhone so I was thinking that in using one, I would discover things that I haven't via research and quick messing around with one.

The main thing that puts me off so far is the aesthetic - all that grey everywhere and using classic drop-down menus. It seems like years ago they were better than Windows for the UX but that Windows has caught up and overtaken now.

Then again, many tech journalists sometimes betray a lack of understanding of modern windows imagining it is the same as the days of blaster worm and windows XP. Some journos on a podcast let slip how they had no idea that Microsoft had a Google Docs rival in Office Web Apps or had a dropbox competitor in Skydrive (and this is a major tech news site).

I think I'm pretty clear on the pros. I'm not clear on the cons and that's what I want to discover. I haven't seen any good articles on the cons of macbooks, only silly outdated arguments from windows fanboys. I'll make a thread on here and hopefully we can get some decent discussion about the cons of Mac/OSX before it becomes a standard Mac vs PC thread.

Sorry not the [ and ] keys they'll be on any mac keyboard. Besides anyone even attempting any iOS development shouldn't be struggling to find these keys as you have to use them everywhere in objective c code. I don't buy it.

The cons are mostly less available software than windows, certainly not a gaming machine and possibly less advanced networking in a business environment.

Will be interesting to see how this surface pro does. My hunch is that it could be a difficult sell.

I can understand why its so costly but are the customers going to understand the concept? I still think people will be comparing it with the iPad and wondering why it is so expensive with less battery life. I'll see if I can have a play with one in John Lewis to really make up my mind

I asked the guy. He's German, he uses German layout, even for programming I would never use anything else than English US for that. But I am making this up so it does not matter. Back to Surface Pro. I am going on the hunt tomorrow

Had a play with one of these.
I do run Windows 8 as my main OS at home on a desktop I built Myself.

Things I noticed. It gets very hot and the battery life does not seem great, well not good if you are intending to use as a tablet. Would hate to have this on the lap, in fact I'm not sure it would even settle nicely on your lap, such a rigid viewing angle.
Its also chunkier than I thought, so not ideal for carrying around, but then I'm so used to taking my tablet around now and hardly noticing.
Long time now since I spent my IT days with a backpack, laptop and power, so glad to get my back and shoulders back.

As a tablet, found it just ok to use, compared to an iPad or android tablet.
Would hope there are some third party covers to change the rigid angle for viewing.
But also Metro is such a let down that it doesn't help.

The cover keyboard would only be of use for casual typing.

The sales team were quite negative I noticed with it and encouraging people to move towards more conventional tablets. Nice to hear them asking what their use was.
They also made a point that it was no good for gaming.

The US Mac keyboards have a dedicated # key, it's the UK ones that don't. On a UK Mac keyboard you have to press alt(option)-3 to type the # symbol.


And what's wrong with installing Windows on a Mac?

Its appeal should be mainly to IT Pros and CIOs I would have thought and they should know the pros of the device (like Active Directory). It gives them a chance to satisfy the C-level's demand for a tablets but something the IT department can better than an iPad.

It is a hard sell now that Haswell is so close so I think a Surface Pro 2 may do a lot better.

A good consumer facing next-gen Surface would either have a top-spec Intel Bay Trail Atom processor or a low-power Core i3 (e.g. 10W TDP).

I work in a city centre office with a John Lewis next door so had a look at one at lunch. Like a previous poster I noticed it was running very hot which seems to contradict some the reviews I've seen.

It's pretty chunky with a vent running around the whole back of the machine which is going to complicate having a case as well which is essential for a tablet, well at least for me.

Still not sure who this is going to appeal to, the desktop is unsable without a keyboard attached. I actually think this would work better as an ultrabook with touch screen and thin integrated keyboard.

Why getting mac in the first place then? Enough money gets you a good quality elsewhere, too. Have a look at Samsung Series 9 and tell me you get better quality with MacBook Air than that.

The kickstand (its angle) does not worry me, it can be used without it, and without type/touch cover, too. OTOH if it runs too hot that can be a problem. I'll check and see if it's acceptable.

Overheating seems to be a common problem - and it can affect performance:
http://www.winbeta.org/news/surface-...-threshold-80c

It seems to be gamers complaining, video playback should be fine.

I went to the flagship John Lewis in London. They had two set up, one with Type Cover and one with Touch cover.
Both were cool to the touch but they could get hot if doing something intensive or the venting is being blocked.

It is chunky relative to something like an iPad, it's not chunky relative to an ultrabook.

I envision using it like this:

1) Connected to external monitor, mouse and keyboard at home (so it's like a mac mini)

2) Using it like a tablet in my lap when sitting on a train

3) Using it with a touch/type cover for personal use when travelling for work and staying in hotels etc.

The fact I can get a "full" desktop-class browser with adblocking and lastpass integration (and flash/silverlight to a lesser extent) like any PC/Mac but something light and portable is compelling for me.

I'm already carrying a business laptop in my bag so weight and size are pretty important to me.

Rumour of a new version?
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/25...ng-japan-first
"A Microsoft Japan press release indicates that the firm will soon begin selling the Surface Pro tablet in that country. As is the case elsewhere, the Surface Pro sold in Japan will come in two versions. But those versions will feature 128 GB and 256 GB of storage, respectively, double the amounts sold elsewhere. The device will also include Office Home and Business 2013."

There are a few cases with the correct gaps for the venting but a tough tablet like this shouldn't need a case.

They dropped this on stage repeatedly to show its strength and build quality; Steven Sinofsky uses one as a skateboard.

If you're going to stick a case on it, can one really care about thickness that much? It's like smartphone companies investing so much money to shave a millimetre of thickness off their phones trading off things like battery life in the process and smartphone fans loving it but then sticking a cheap £5 case on it that adds at least 5mm back to the phone often more than doubling the original thickness.

I like Macs and yes I have Windows 7 on it, but I dual boot. What I object to is people who buy a Mac, wipe OSX altogether and put Windows on it. Now that is just wrong. Dual boot is acceptable as long as it's not Vista or 8

Yes, there has been a 256GB version announced. I'm still waiting for the Surface Pro 2 with Haswell though.

Can we stop all these off topic Mac posts please? I'm looking at you cnbcwatcher!

I didn't start talking about Macs, another poster did! I was only replying to those posters.

Ivan, I'm getting pretty close to buying a Pro so do let me know once you've bought yours and do a bit of a write-up after you've had it for a week.