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Pick Of The Pops - Radio 2
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80sfan
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by The Gatherer:
“100% agree! Us SAW fans need to stick together against the unbelievers! ”

We need to show them the light and convert them!

The nay-sayers can start by learning all the lyrics to the fantastic 'I'd Rather Jack' o
Jedikiah
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by The Gatherer:
“Agree with all those except of course, as per my previous post, the abysmal Wired for Sound. I would add All My Love from the 60s plus two classics from 1976, Miss You Nights and best of all I Can't Ask For Anymore Than You, Cliff's greatest ever single. (Surprised the anti SAW brigade, led by General Rich Tea, haven't had a go at you for daring to like the brilliant I Just Don't Have the Heart!)”

I remember the late great DJ Roger Scott, remarking that Cliff must have been out of his mind to team up with Stock, Aitken and Waterman, although Cliff has always been a pretty strong individual where his inner convictions are concerned. I like some of his singles throughout his career, although i find his falsetto on 'I Can't Ask For Anymore Than You', pretty much unbearable. I concur with Rich Tea on his late seventies/early eighties hits holding a particular appeal, although 'Wired For Sound' has always struck me as pretty standard 80s synth pop, and really rather irritating at that. Cliff has always been willing to adapt his music to the times which i applaud, and he's occasionally managed to come across some rather inspiring treasures ('Throw Down A Line', 'Jesus', 'All My Love', 'Devil Woman', 'Carrie' etc.). His music certainly hasn't always been as bland as the later 'Mistletoe And Wine' and 'Millennium Prayer' etc. suggests, and although he's never quite had the gravitas as a singer to make a truly convincing rock 'n' roller, alongside the all time greats, he has always possessed an immense charisma.
80sfan
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Jedikiah:
“I remember the late great DJ Roger Scott, remarking that Cliff must have been out of his mind to team up with Stock, Aitken and Waterman.”

Clearly Cliff wanted a hit. They gave him one

With remarks like that, clearly Scott was just playing into Pete Waterman's hands
Jedikiah
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“Clearly Cliff wanted a hit. They gave him one

With remarks like that, clearly Scott was just playing into Pete Waterman's hands”

I could fully understand Roger's viewpoint, especially as Stock, Aitken and Waterman showed little apology for their blatant exploitation of the pop market, with regard to their very specific brand of disposable pop. However, many of their singles taken on their own terms, are certainly not quite as unfavourable as what would become the norm in the decades that would follow.
The Gatherer
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Jedikiah:
“I could fully understand Roger's viewpoint, especially as Stock, Aitken and Waterman showed little apology for their blatant exploitation of the pop market, with regard to their very specific brand of disposable pop. However, many of their singles taken on their own terms, are certainly not quite as unfavourable as what would become the norm in the decades that would follow.”

I don't understand his viewpoint, I just think it is the all too prevalent musically snobbery. SAW gave Cliff one of his biggest hits of the 80s and IMO one of his best ever. Why on earth should SAW apologise for doing their job and doing it well?
Robbie01
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Jedikiah:
“I could fully understand Roger's viewpoint, especially as Stock, Aitken and Waterman showed little apology for their blatant exploitation of the pop market, with regard to their very specific brand of disposable pop. However, many of their singles taken on their own terms, are certainly not quite as unfavourable as what would become the norm in the decades that would follow.”

Whatever anyone thinks of SAW (and I'm not a big fan) they did help to sustain interest in the singles format and the singles charts in the late 80s during an era where the big name acts had all but abandoned any interest in the format due to a preference for releasing an album every 2 to 3 years and then mining that album for numerous singles.

It's no coincidence that at the peak of the SAW era (mid 1988 to late 1989) the rapid decline in sales that the singles market had been suffering from for a few years was halted and indeed in 1989 began to show slight growth. When SAW fell out of favour in 1990 singles sales once again resumed their downward trend until new singles stars and trends revived the market from 1993 onwards.
ClareB
23-07-2014
I have to say that while I like a lot of the S/A/W stuff, mainly 84-88 and a lot of Cliff's songs from most decades, I can't say I really liked Cliff's S/A/W singles.
Westy2
23-07-2014
They did the same for Donna Summer too!
Rich Tea.
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by The Gatherer:
“Goodbye Sam Hello Samantha isn't bad. But Wired for Sound is absolutely dire. One of the all time worst singles. "I Like Tall Speakers / I Like Small Speakers". Dreadful. And cassettes certainly aren't relevant today.”

What have cassettes got to do with it Gatherer? I know that Walkman's were all the latest rage at that point. However I'm meaning nothing to do with what music is listened on, but through. What the heck do you think people are walking around listening to their iPods through nowadays exactly? WIRES dear boy!

That is why it's still utterly relevant in 2014 as in 1981. Most of us are all still as "Wired For Sound" as ever.

Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“Very true! I think his vast back catalogue and the mostly unfair lack of radio airplay he gets means so many Cliff songs get forgotten.

'She's so Beautiful' from 1985 is also a decent song
but is largely ignored”

I remember Cliff's She's So Beautiful getting a review on Radio 1's Round Table at the time in late summer 1985 and fully expecting it to be given the thumbs down. It wasn't. Infact Richard Skinner commented that he thought it was going to go all the way to No1 for him. Sadly that proved optimistic as it just scraped the twenty.
faversham saint
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Jedikiah:
“I would agree though that 'Start Me Up' and the Tattoo You album from 1981 were the last things the Stones released with any real artistic merit. After that it was downhill all the way.”

Some people think it's "cheesy" but IMO the video the Stones made in January 1984 with Julien Temple to promote 'She Was Hot' was possibly the most spectacular, fast-moving and entertaining of the 80s although at least one of the scenes in the clip below was edited out for MTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQh8oh0rj3s
Jedikiah
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Westy2:
“They did the same for Donna Summer too!”

Yes, and i'd say the Donna Summer collaboration 'This Time I Know Its For Real', was perhaps their best. Their songs can work successfully, and especially given good singers to work alongside. Jason Donovan was perhaps one of the least gifted singers, but the formula still managed to shine for him to a degree, however much also their output around the 1988/89 period, all did begin to sound all the same (apart from maybe 'Especially For You').

I think perhaps amongst the critics, the idea of a well established artist collaborating with Stock, Aitken and Waterman was considered a very cheap shot, to grab some of the limelight by associating with such an obvious corporate led money making 'machine' (and not the least bit artistically create at that), and to try to appeal to Kylie and Jason's young fanbase seemed also like a very cynical move, indeed.
keicar
23-07-2014
Originally Posted by Rich Tea.:
“What the heck do you think people are walking around listening to their iPods through nowadays exactly? WIRES dear boy!”

Rich Tea you're so 2005, haven't you heard of Bluetooth? All the kids seem to be wearing Dr Dre type Bluetooth headsets these days.

Maybe high time for a remake, how about 'Bluetoothed For Sound' ? Substitute the lyrics cassette for IPod and AM for DAB and we're there!
Rich Tea.
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by keicar:
“Rich Tea you're so 2005, haven't you heard of Bluetooth? All the kids seem to be wearing Dr Dre type Bluetooth headsets these days.

Maybe high time for a remake, how about 'Bluetoothed For Sound' ? Substitute the lyrics cassette for IPod and AM for DAB and we're there! ”

Keicar, I'm not a 22 year old sheep that has to be seen with the right logo on my ears for fear of being "dissed".

I thought both me and you were in agreement that we are both "so pre-1986".

I wasn't going to muddy the waters of my point by going down the bluetooth route, although you are right. I think most people still use wires to listen to their music though. I did have some indoor wireless headphones about 6 years ago, that worked by a laser light beam from a base box plugged into my audio system that had to be in direct view of the wireless headphones on the head. I soon got fed up with it, especially after one sunny day I put the unit out in the garden with the headphones on my head, and although I was only a couple of meters away from the unit, the laser beam would not go through bright daylight to my headset. So I am essentially using very similar type of headphones in 2014 on an iPod to the things I was using in 1984 on a radio cassette deck. A £14 pair of Sennheiser headphones that give fabulous sound quality. The white earbud things that come with Apple iPods I just discarded. I cannot believe so many people seem to use such an inferior way of hearing music. You cannot listen to music in any decent way with earbud style earpieces.
80sfan
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by The Gatherer:
“I don't understand his viewpoint, I just think it is the all too prevalent musically snobbery. SAW gave Cliff one of his biggest hits of the 80s and IMO one of his best ever. Why on earth should SAW apologise for doing their job and doing it well?”

It's simple. Had Cliff turned to say Mike Oldfield, Pink Floyd or Fleetwood Mac for a song, the 'music elite' would have needed to change their underwear in excitement. Acts that were dated and past-it and irrelevant in 1989, the same as certain DJs who were on Radio 1 in that era. Musical darts followed by the latest Bananarama single anyone?

Roger Scott was in his late 40s in 1989. How could he connect with what teenagers in the late 1980s wanted to hear? I'm sure had Cliff come up with some 10 minute long dreary self-indulgent durge (but written by some early 1970s folk act) that was so out date, certain DJs would have adored it.

It's a case of 'why the DJ on the radio station is always twice the age of me'. Nice one Sir Pete of Waterman!
80sfan
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by keicar:
“
Maybe high time for a remake, how about 'Bluetoothed For Sound' ? Substitute the lyrics cassette for IPod and AM for DAB and we're there! ”

I think you'd find the message 'Station not Available' is the most popular channel on DAB

Or if there is a signal, it's like listening underwater!! FM is so much better!!
JBO
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“It's simple. Had Cliff turned to say Mike Oldfield, Pink Floyd or Fleetwood Mac for a song, the 'music elite' would have needed to change their underwear in excitement. Acts that were dated and past-it and irrelevant in 1989, the same as certain DJs who were on Radio 1 in that era. Musical darts followed by the latest Bananarama single anyone?
”



Banana-bloody-rama's 1990 comeback single Only Your Love is a forgotten gem. I've got it on my Ipod with my bud earphones
80sfan
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by Jedikiah:
“Yes, and i'd say the Donna Summer collaboration 'This Time I Know Its For Real', was perhaps their best. Their songs can work successfully, and especially given good singers to work alongside. Jason Donovan was perhaps one of the least gifted singers, but the formula still managed to shine for him to a degree, however much also their output around the 1988/89 period, all did begin to sound all the same (apart from maybe 'Especially For You').

I think perhaps amongst the critics, the idea of a well established artist collaborating with Stock, Aitken and Waterman was considered a very cheap shot, to grab some of the limelight by associating with such an obvious corporate led money making 'machine' (and not the least bit artistically create at that), and to try to appeal to Kylie and Jason's young fanbase seemed also like a very cynical move, indeed.”

Not really. I was 14 in 1989, do you even think I'd heard of Donna Summer when the awesome 'This Time...' was released?!? Her work with SAW opened up her 1970s/early 80s stuff to me alongside other singers from that era. Donna's best 80s hits are her SAW ones in my opinion.

I agree that Donovan was by far the weakest act SAW ever signed. Terrible voice yet he acted like their biggest talent, but that was down to Donovan's ego more than anything else. The total opposite of the likes of Kylie, Rick, Sonia, Bananarama etc.

I was in their target audience and I'm not ever ashamed to say SAW's music was the soundtrack to my teen years. They gave us what so many of us wanted. The likes of Ms Summer & Mr Richard would have been foolish not to have taken the songs they were offered
80sfan
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by JBO:
“Banana-bloody-rama's 1990 comeback single Only Your Love is a forgotten gem. I've got it on my Ipod with my bud earphones”

I must check that out
Rich Tea.
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“Not really. I was 14 in 1989, do you even think I'd heard of Donna Summer when the awesome 'This Time...' was released?!? Her work with SAW opened up her 1970s/early 80s stuff to me alongside other singers from that era. Donna's best 80s hits are her SAW ones in my opinion.

I agree that Donovan was by far the weakest act SAW ever signed. Terrible voice yet he acted like their biggest talent, but that was down to Donovan's ego more than anything else. The total opposite of the likes of Kylie, Rick, Sonia, Bananarama etc.

I was in their target audience and I'm not ever ashamed to say SAW's music was the soundtrack to my teen years. They gave us what so many of us wanted. The likes of Ms Summer & Mr Richard would have been foolish not to have taken the songs they were offered ”

I was 14 in 1983. Why would I have needed some artist to suddenly release a song to "open up" their back catalogue to interest me, or suddenly find out they even existed? Of course you should have heard of Donna Summer in 1989 at the age of 14, even without her big Waterman produced "comeback" to the top ten hit early that year. You'd never heard I Feel Love by age 14 for instance? I do not understand your logic here. I respect your opinion, but disagree strongly with it about Donna Summer's 80's hits.

Have you not heard her two fantastic 1982 top twenty singles....Love Is In Control (Finger On The Trigger) or State Of Independence? What about 1983's She Works Hard For The Money? All vastly superior to her late 80's sell out.

As for Cliff Richard, the despair I felt when discovering he'd fallen into the clutches of Waterman! I mean, he never even needed to do it. He was having enormous hit singles right up until that moment. The previous 2 singles up until his Waterman effort, had been his 100th single that made No2, The Best Of Me, only kept off the top by a dreary Jason Donovan cover when they both debuted at the top two spots in the same week of June 1989, unheard of then other than the Band Aid/Wham chart that did it. The single before that by Cliff was his major 4 week long 1988 Christmas No1. He'd had one of his best singles and a No3 with Some People in late 1987 too. So the hits were still coming and were big ones. He did not need to look towards Waterman to aid him for a moment, in the same way that Donna Summer had been through a leaner spell which you could make excuses for.

Bananrama's best singles were all in the early 80's from 1982 to 1986. Cruel Summer beats everything.

Kylie's best singles have all come with her second wind after her mid 90's lull.


The Gatherer need not start snarling at me over this post. Talking Donna Summer and SAW is a flammable combination with me and him. It's my opinion, and I respect what other's think but am also happy to argue my own corner.


Nobody has yet commented on why they think Tony has missed the obvious chance to celebrate his 50th anniversary on radio this weekend by doing 1964 on POTP.
80sfan
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by Rich Tea.:
“I was 14 in 1983. Why would I have needed some artist to suddenly release a song to "open up" their back catalogue to interest me, or suddenly find out they even existed? Of course you should have heard of Donna Summer in 1989 at the age of 14, even without her big hit early that year. You'd never heard I Feel Love by age 14 for instance? I do not understand your logic here. I respect your opinion, but disagree strongly with it about Donna Summer's 80's hits.

Have you not heard her two fantastic 1982 top twenty singles....Love Is In Control (Finger On The Trigger) or State Of Independence? What about 1983's She Works Hard For The Money? All vastly superior to her late 80's sell out.

As for Cliff Richard, the despair I felt when discovering he'd fallen into the clutches of Waterman! I mean, he never even needed to do it. He was having enormous hit singles right up until that moment. The previous 2 singles up until his Waterman effort, had been his 100th single that made No2, The Best Of Me, only kept off the top by a dreary Jason Donovan cover when they both debuted at the top two spots in the same week of June 1989, unheard of then other than the Band Aid/Wham chart that did it. The single before that by Cliff was his major 4 week long 1988 Christmas No1. He'd had one of his best singles and a No3 with Some People in late 1987 too. So the hits were still coming and were big ones. He did not need to look towards Waterman to aid him for a moment, in the same way that Donna Summer had been through a leaner spell which you could make excuses for.

Bananrama's best singles were all in the early 80's from 1982 to 1986. Cruel Summer beats everything.

Kylie's best singles have all come with her second wind after her mid 90's lull.


The Gatherer need not start snarling at me over this post. It's my opinion, and I respect what other's think but am also happy to argue my own corner.


Nobody has yet commented on why they think Tony has missed the obvious chance to celebrate his 50th anniversary on radio this weekend by doing 1964 on POTP.”

Erm well think about the media landscape in 1989.

We had a couple of FM stations playing pretty much the charts. Radio 2 was for an older generation than my parents. There was no YouTube. No internet. Not even anything like Capital Gold or GEM AM or anything. I read Smash Hits. Do you think they featured Ms Summer, considered a has-been up until 1988? Even so, as a 14 years old boy I wasn't interested (then) in the 1970s. Was the Chart Show or TOTP churning out 'I Feel Love' in 1989? No. Donna had flopped with so many releases, no matter how good you may think they are, from the early 1980s to 1987. 'Dinner With Gershwin' was a good song but a chart flop!

You may not personally like SAW or the late 1980s, I've seen your posts before, but you are blinkered if you think Donna Summer could have had a top 3 single in 1989 without SAW. Bizarrely she turned them down for a second album in 1990. I don't recall her charting again...
FM Lover
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“Erm well think about the media landscape in 1989.

We had a couple of FM stations playing pretty much the charts. Radio 2 was for an older generation than my parents. There was no YouTube. No internet. Not even anything like Capital Gold or GEM AM or anything. I read Smash Hits. Do you think they featured Ms Summer, considered a has-been up until 1988? Even so, as a 14 years old boy I wasn't interested (then) in the 1970s. Was the Chart Show or TOTP churning out 'I Feel Love' in 1989? No. Donna had flopped with so many releases, no matter how good you may think they are, from the early 1980s to 1987. 'Dinner With Gershwin' was a good song but a chart flop!

You may not personally like SAW or the late 1980s, I've seen your posts before, but you are blinkered if you think Donna Summer could have had a top 3 single in 1989 without SAW. Bizarrely she turned them down for a second album in 1990. I don't recall her charting again...”

Living in the outskirts of London I was lucky enough to get Capital when it was the only radio station to listen to.

It wasn't really until the evening kicked in when along came Pat and Mick and Dr Fox and they would play a lot of SAW stuff on the evening shows and they most certainly played the Donna Summer tracks produced by SAW.

We did have Capital Gold in 1989 as it launched in 1988.
ClareB
24-07-2014
At the end of the day, I'm pretty certain that Cliff and Donna weren't dragged into the hit factory studios! However much it might have annoyed older fans of theirs, it was entirely their choice. Although, as someone of a similar age to 80s fan, I was familiar with a lot of their songs before this, I'm sure part of their thinking in working with them was to try a capture a younger fanbase. If it did introduce some to their back catalogue, that is a good thing imo.
Jedikiah
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“It's simple. Had Cliff turned to say Mike Oldfield, Pink Floyd or Fleetwood Mac for a song, the 'music elite' would have needed to change their underwear in excitement. Acts that were dated and past-it and irrelevant in 1989, the same as certain DJs who were on Radio 1 in that era. Musical darts followed by the latest Bananarama single anyone?

Roger Scott was in his late 40s in 1989. How could he connect with what teenagers in the late 1980s wanted to hear? I'm sure had Cliff come up with some 10 minute long dreary self-indulgent durge (but written by some early 1970s folk act) that was so out date, certain DJs would have adored it.
Ttpcom
It's a case of 'why the DJ on the radio station is always twice the age of me'. Nice one Sir Pete of Waterman! ”

Let's not forget Cliff also collaborated with Van Morrison in that same period with 'Whenever God Shines His Light' which seemed pretty much the reverse of him working with the ultra commercial convey belt pop of Stock, Aitken and Waterman. In a sense, i do like Cliff's lack of musical snobbery, although the Stock-Aitken-Waterman connection may have been taking things a little too far. Cliff's eighties period for me proved very mixed in terms of quality. I think the Alan Tarney collaborations like 'Some People' and 'My Pretty One' were an effective take on contemporary eighties pop, but 'Mistletoe And Wine' was bland in the extreme. 'I Just Don't Have The Heart' isn't by any means his worst.
FM Lover
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by ClareB:
“At the end of the day, I'm pretty certain that Cliff and Donna weren't dragged into the hit factory studios! However much it might have annoyed older fans of theirs, it was entirely their choice. Although, as someone of a similar age to 80s fan, I was familiar with a lot of their songs before this, I'm sure part of their thinking in working with them was to try a capture a younger fanbase. If it did introduce some to their back catalogue, that is a good thing imo.”

Back in 88/89 if you wanted a sure fire hit then you go to see Pete Waterman, I too am sure no one dragged Cliff & Donna screaming. Cliff of course was just the one track, Donna did a whole album.

I do recall the fuss made in 89 when it was time for Cliff to release his 100th single and he'd recorded the SAW track but the record company didn't put it out as single 100 so the rumour went that Jason Donovan's "Sealed With A Kiss" was released the same week as Cliff's "Best of Me" out of spite and of course Donovan won that battle.
Rich Tea.
24-07-2014
Originally Posted by 80sfan:
“Erm well think about the media landscape in 1989.

We had a couple of FM stations playing pretty much the charts. Radio 2 was for an older generation than my parents. There was no YouTube. No internet. Not even anything like Capital Gold or GEM AM or anything. I read Smash Hits. Do you think they featured Ms Summer, considered a has-been up until 1988? Even so, as a 14 years old boy I wasn't interested (then) in the 1970s. Was the Chart Show or TOTP churning out 'I Feel Love' in 1989? No. Donna had flopped with so many releases, no matter how good you may think they are, from the early 1980s to 1987. 'Dinner With Gershwin' was a good song but a chart flop!

You may not personally like SAW or the late 1980s, I've seen your posts before, but you are blinkered if you think Donna Summer could have had a top 3 single in 1989 without SAW. Bizarrely she turned them down for a second album in 1990. I don't recall her charting again...”

What's your definition of a chart flop 80sfan? Dinner With Gershwin just missed top ten, making No13. Some flop.

I'm not going to buy into your other point that Donna Summer could not have had another top three hit without Waterman. Why exactly? Not too long before this, Bee Gees had not charted or had a big hit since '79, also when Donna was at her peak. Did they need to go running to Waterman to get them another big hit? No. In summer 1987 you could likely have said they are finished, never will they have another notable or sizable hit. Yet by that autumn, without Waterman, they had returned to the top with a massive No1. At the same time, another unfancied artist who had not had a hit in years, former Beatle George Harrison shot to No2 for a month stay. Even 70's icon Barry White at the same time grabbed his biggest hit since the 70's. So to suggest that Donna Summer "needed" Waterman to ever stand another chance of a big hit is being rather disingenuous to her as an artist.
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