Just wondering if anyone here has had any experience with this food?

we're considering trying it as our border collie has struggled with his weight since he was neutered 2 years ago, he's now at an all time high of 30.8kg after a recent weigh in (he's a tall collie to be fair, and i believe 23kg to be his ideal weight point)

i was gutted when i saw the read-out on the vets scales last week, as we had been trying really hard to get his weight down, more walking, running and swimming with only just more than half the ration of Beta Senior he should have been getting, per day.

annoyingly, his body score has improved slightly, his ribs are much easier to feel than they were back in november. and he looks a lot more sleek - friends and family have even commented that he seems to have slimmed off which just adds to the irritation!

we believe his diet being supplemented by him cleaning up after my sisters toddler to have added to the issue.
so we have stopped all this now, he's being watched like a hawk.
we can;t really cut his actual meals down any more (his current ones amount to about 180g per day, his meals are barely covering the bottom of his bowl in a single layer, and he doesn't have a huge bowl to begin with)
but we're having trouble now where he is constantly on the look out for food, there's no wonder really as his meals aren't coming anywhere close to filling his stomach.
(soaking the food to bulk it up isn't an option as he won't touch it)

Our vet mentioned a skinners food, or a new one from Hills, part of the name was "Metabolic" and apparently it's a new product.
to be quite frank though - Hills is quite far out of our price range, which is why we are considering the purina option for obesity management.
to be honest as well, at the normal price, this purina product is out of our price range too, but we're lucky to know someone who works for nestle UK and can get it at staff prices, making it a lot easier to afford.

all the reviews i have seen for the product have been good (other than over at dogfoodanalysis.com, anyway) but most are referring to small and toy breeds.
they're very easy to over feed though and if they can lose weight on this food, surely it should help Fatboy too?

it's worth a go. but if anyone has any experience with the food, please share your experiences as i'd be very glad to hear about them!

We use the hills one, our fattie is a collie x and is round bless him. It's hills rs, it's horrid stuff (dry and looks rotten) but none of the others we tried were any better! We did get him some different biscuits though, I'll check when I'm at mums today as he loves them and they've made a big difference.

Edit: should say we chose hills as he could have 2 1/2 tins a day, so was getting filled up..

If you can feel the ribs and he looks in good shape, I would not worry about the weight. Especially as you say, he is tall. If he does lots of excercise just watch that he does not get lots of treats.

Our old dog had struggled with her weight all her life since being spayed.

We've tried several different 'diet' foods which make no difference whatsoever apart from making her ravenously hungry and erm.. gassy!!

She now and raw and although still a couple of kilos over, has toned up brilliantly and still going strong at 13.

She doesn't get treats other than raw carrot or pepper

Our late Katie struggled with her weight we never used diet foods as such just cut her normal rations and topped her bowl up with raw carrot, and any left over vegetables after our meals (not potato). Maintained her weight well on that for many years. Oh also never believe the amount the manufacturers say to feed they always seem to assume the dog is an athlete needing massive amounts of food every day !

Thanks for the replies
we've tried hard with his normal food, he's been absolutely brilliant on beta senior - no stiffness in his joints, perfect poos, glossy coat - even on just half a ration. but i would be happier if he lost some beef.

his ribs can be felt, but there is a very obvious covering of fat there
it's also quite prominent on his back too. (he has a small "dewlap" like area which i've noticed more recently too, it swings side to side between his front legs as well)
he's not exactly unwell, he loves running, walking, swimming and doesn't tire all that quickly (though he does tire more quickly than he used to and runs more slowly)
quite happy with him in himself, i just think that losing a few kilos would benefit him.


we have been cutting his meals down as much as possible, but it's at the point now where it's just so little that he's constantly hungry.
we even considered switching to wet food so he could get fuller, but he won't touch the stuff.
the carrot sounds like a great idea but it wouldn't work with the lad, and mum flat out refuses to raw feed (to be honest, i'd worry he wasn't getting all his vits & minerals covered)

he's been brought up on dry food, so doesn't really entertain anything else as a meal
he'll even ignore his own meals if there is something other than maybe some dry chicken put on top of it
anything wet and he doesn't like it.

i decided it was worth a go anyway and ordered a bag, which i picked up this afternoon for him
he seemed to like it when i offered him a couple of kibbles from my hand, so he had a few bits mixed in with his normal food and will be transitioning onto that this week.

the ingredients on there aren't much off par with what he was getting in his beta, all similar quality by the looks of things, but a higher corn content, so i'm quietly confident at the moment that it will suit him.

got a shock when i opened the bag though - it's bright blumming yellow! :O

I'd be adding some chicken to it, might make it more temping. And won't affect the diet.

he's eating it fine, thankfully
seems to very much enjoy it so far

so far so good on it, his poops are coming out in tip top condition, i'll report back if we make any progress on his weight

I have just checked the ingredients for Purina and they aren't the best quality. Take a look at this.

Hills food isn't much better. Take a look at this.

I would recommend that you switch to a food that has better quality ingredients or one that is hypo-allergenic. My personal recommendations are:

Fishmongers.

Wainwrights.

A more lengthy list can be found by clicking here. It's a traffic light review system. Red is poor, amber is middle of the road, and green is good.

Not long after getting my dog, a vet at the practice he is registered with, sold me a bag of Hills dental treats. I didn't look at the ingredients until I got home. They were full of cheap quality ingredients and I was charged almost £4 for them! I later found out that bigger companies like Hills sponsor vets and push them to sell their products. Vets get something like 10-20% of the profits and would rather make money than giving the best possible recommendations for your dog. Some vets are more honest, but you really need to be careful about the food you give your dog. A lot of ingredients can be harmful and should be avoided.

If you are wanting to get a decent amount of weight of your dog, then mix in some white fish or turkey. These aren't as rich as chicken, but still as tasty. Or you could get trays or cans of good wet food. A list of those can be found here.

fish doesn't agree with the boy, nor will he eat wet food which is where simply switching to a wet food and mixer diet falls flat on its face otherwise we would have tried this route long ago

both of the products posted there are out of our price range also, unfortunately.

i've chosen to ignore the dog food analysis site page for OM as it is rather out dated.
the ingredients list they have reviewed is no longer what is stated on the bag (protein source is now poultry based, rather than bovine for a start)
i know it's not the best food for him, the ingredients aren't the best. but it has solved our problem of him not constantly being on the look out for food so far.
the dogfoodanalysis page also has the issue that they have reviewed the product as a standard food, rather than one indicated for health management - fillers, fibres etc. aren't a bad thing in this food. especially not for our dog as we purchased it as a way to help him feel fuller for longer, as his meals previous to switching food were minuscule and not sating his appetite at all.
it is also very low calorie (the bag states around 2 kcal per 1g)
it also has indications of keeping a dogs blood sugar level at a constant level, so is also used in managing diabetes.

it's not a food i blindly walked into buying, i researched it all first before making the decision to buy it over the beta he was eating.
the food itself, quality wise, is about on par with the beta he was on before.

he's fine in himself, so unless it begins to show signs of causing him trouble, we're happy to continue with it.
i've noticed over the last couple of days since he's been on this food straight, his poos are a lot smaller and firmer than they used to be (which isn't a bad thing!)

i suppose that we are lucky that he doesn't have trouble with wheat or maize
for what we needed it to do for him though, so far, it has ticked one box, so long as he loses a bit of beef while on it, it will tick the rest of them too

Is this the food your dog gets? If so, it is quite a bit more expensive than the two I recommended and has poorer ingredients. It contains several things (corn, gluten, soya, and wheat) that are known to cause digestive problems and allergies. It does state poultry protein and animal fat. However, neither of those are species specific and could come from the cheapest source at time of manufacturing and can change from batch to batch. There is a big difference between 'animal fat' and defining the actual source. The fat could come from a wide range of sources. There is also a difference between 'poultry protein' and naming what type of bird it came from. There is web page that goes into detail about this and it can found here. It is American, but the manufacturing of British dog food is pretty much the same. Here is another site telling you to avoid a lot of those ingredients. In fact there are more than a few telling you to avoid them. That should tell you something.

I have been researching dog food ingredients for well over a year now and have read far too many stories of dogs becoming seriously ill (and worse) because of poor nutrition. Your dog might be fine now, but he might not be further down the line. Please don't think I am being rude or whatever for disagreeing with your food of choice, but Purina's weight management diet is really bad. It's full of cheap fillers and undefined animal and poultry proteins and fats. If you want your dog to feel full, then fill him up with a good quality food.

I don't think there is any need to be rude or to try to scare xdow.

Xdow's dog is on the specialist food for obesity, so to suggest filling him up on a food such as wainwrights if ridiculous, even their 'light' is not that light. Yes I agree thy are good quality but they do not equal better nutrition, a dog that is on chappie can be just as healthy if fed correctly. You say you've been researching it for a year, I presume that means reading websites. I have done a module on nutrition and we did food tests, broke down some top label dog foods vs the cheaper brands, you'd be surprised at some of the results, particularly the moisture contents of some premium brands. But that's irrelevant, the point is the ops dog is on a specialist food for obesity, the food is low cal, high nutrition and designed to allow large portions to fill the dog up. The nutritional content in 100g of the food WILL be less then an equivalent high street or premium brand, that's the whole point. Think of it like a human eating salad all day every day, you need to eat an awful lot to get your calories.

I said in my previous post that it was not my intent to be rude. Yes I did use scare tactics in the hopes of getting xdow to switch to a better food. I should have said before that my own dog (a Lurcher - GreyhoundxCollie) has been having issues with his weight too. He was around 30kg at the beginning of the year and is now down to almost 28kg. He has not needed a 'specialist' diet to do this. His meal portions have been cut down as has the amount of treats he gets. He was on Wainwrights adult and is now on their mature salmon and potato. It is mixed with their mature wet food. Although I will probably change to Fishmongers due to it having a higher fish content. The quantities he gets is about a third of a scoop (the plastic ones that you get free in pet shops) and a sixth of a tray each meal. He had bout after bout of diarrhea over the winter because of the salt and de-icers put down on the roads and paths. He had Pro-Kolin a couple of times and it was suggested he have three smaller meals. This helped with the diarrhea and I have continued with the additional meal and I think it has also helped with his weight loss. He also gets walked for about two hours a day (sometimes longer if we are somewhere nice like out in the country) and has a good run off-lead several times a week. Treat wise he gets a few bits of kibble, one or two Wainwrights cereal free biscuits, and the odd fillet of fish through his kibble instead of his normal wet food. I firmly believe that there is no need for humans or dogs to go onto specialist diets. Reduced portions of good quality food and a good amount of regular exercise is the way to go.

Yes I have done my research through websites and those sites contain information compiled by people who have done extensive research on dog food. These include people who are vets themselves and owners of dogs who have been seriously ill or died because of poor nutrition.

There is a movement to stop the sale of dog food that have poor quality ingredients. It has had an impact because some pet food retailers have stopped selling Bakers and Pedigree. Both of which load their food with cheap and nasty stuff (including carcinogens - which cause cancer, slaughter house floor sweepings and sugar) and charge ridiculous amounts for it. This is how they can afford to have big advertising campaigns and to sponsor shows like Paul O'Grady: For the Love of Dogs. When I first got my dog, he would get Pedigree this, Bakers that, and other unhealthy treats. That all stopped once I realised just how much rubbish goes into them.

As for Chappie. Whilst it has been proven to be good for sensitive stomachs, there are no other positive things that can be said about it.

An apology to xdow is also needed. I misread your post and thought your dog was already on the weight management diet, but he is on Beta senior. Just checked the ingredients for that and they are even worse. I am sorry for getting onto you about it, but please move away from Purina. I know you get it at staff prices, but spending a little bit more on a better product will go a long way.

But by feeding your dog less of the higher quality food you are not proving him with the nutrients he needs, that's why he's losing weight, the guideline feeding amounts are there for a reason, if you cut the portion size in half you might as well feed him something less nutritional.

Xdow has already said that reducing food intake doesn't work, as it makes him hungry all the time, unsurprisingly. That's why the purina and similar foods are so dense and per 100g nutrition values are less than the equivalent premium brand, because the idea is we feed more to fill the dog up. If you looked at nutritional values per portion you'd probably see some different results.

GibsonGirl, the PVD food you linked to is the one i have bought for him, but purchased at nowhere near the retail price. it's actually less than half of that.

I've also studied Nutrition as part of my Animal Management course at college, which is why i stated i've not gone into this blindly.

Beta senior was just the latest food he has been on to try promote weight loss, and by far not the first thing we've tried with him.
i spent most of november researching different foods within our price range and emailing several companies, requesting samples of their lowest calorie formulations
the majority of them were fish based, and didn't suit. (he wouldn't even touch some of them)
we went through several different types and a lot of runny poops before eventually coming back to beta at christmas - a brand and formulation we know he can get along with and doesn't cause him digestive upset.. we've used both beta light and beta senior recently.


he's on a specialist obesity food now because we've tried the usual more exercise/smaller portions route and just ended up with a ravenous dog.
our vet was told all of this at his yearly check up last month and they agreed that after 2 years of persevering with other foods, it was probably time to move to a proper obesity management food as his meals were at the point where they were too small to be considered actual meals.


it got to the point where he was hoovering up any crumb he could find left by my niece around the house and picking up off pavements - something he has never done before. (and also something which i absolutely can't abide)

I would feed a better quality food, if it would suit him, help him lose weight and i could afford it, but neither of these categories can be covered by switching again to yet another higher calorie food.

I can see that this is a a subject that you are very passionate about, but at the moment, the PVD OM is our best option for him, and i'm very sorry but you won't change my mind on this.

It doesn't have the best ingredients, i will agree, but the important thing for me here is that the food is suiting him.
he is digesting it well, he seems to like it and after a week he already seems a happier dog, no longer sitting and staring at us, drooling, whilst we eat our own meals, not obsessively sniffing around for any little crumb he can find. he still asks for his meals, (three small meals, a morning, an afternoon and evening meal) but as these are doing better to fill his stomach he is begging for other things much less.

i would love to be feeding him something like Applaws - the 75% meat content of their dry food alone sounds like a magnificent feast for a dog. well suited to a carnivore. but at double the cost of the food i'm buying for him now and being unemployed, it's a pipe dream.

i'm already kicking myself for having him neutered at 4, as this kick-started the whole problem.

when he is at a healthy weight, i plan to re-consider his diet. perhaps then i will be better able to afford something like applaws, but until that time comes, we will be continuing with this food as it seems to be our best option to try and manage his weight without having him in permanent sulk mode.

Xdow, neutering was what did it for our collie x too. He was fine till then (he was about 3). He's always been a fussy eater though, he wouldn't eat anything but puppy meat until he was about 18 months!

I think they are prone to hormonal based weight gain and it's a struggle to get it off. Out of interest, where did you go to uni? Askam? (Just being nosey!) i did a.management at bishop before this degree.

ah yes, i went to ABC!
didn't go incredibly in-depth with the nutrition on that course, but covered enough about specialist diets in vet nursing modules to know how to manage weight, lots of the usual tricks just haven't got us anywhere with him.

neutering ours just turned a switch in him that food was the best thing ever, before he was neutered, he wasn't all that bothered. you had to stand over him to get him to eat, but now his food is gone in next to no time.
the only thing he is really fussy with is his kibble, he'll eat just about any, but he's not keen on lamb or fish flavoured ones
you can tell from the way he eats them, which ones he actually enjoys from the ones he doesn't.
which i'm really glad that he seems to like the PVD food for that reason

he doesn't like it wet or with anything else on it, other than dry meat, but he usually picks that off and wanders away, coming back for the kibble later on when he feels like it.

I would like to ask where you went to do your courses on nutrition and if you know if they were sponsored/conducted/or in any other way influenced by the pet food industry. I know a lot of vet schools are funded by the big companies and any of the nutritional courses vets take while there are conducted by the same companies (Hills is one the biggest sponsors by-the-way), so do you really think they are going to tell the future vets that their food is rubbish? They will give them incentive after incentive to push their products. People (whose dogs are on food with bad ingredients) think their dogs are healthy just because they have shiny coats, but this is down to the fact that the food contains oil which makes their coats glossy. Internally a dog might not be healthy. Over time, crappy ingredients build up in a dog's body and can seriously affect organs, circulation, bring on early arthritis, and cause cancer. Poor nutrition can also lead to behavioural problems. Studies have also shown that corn is a highly soluble carbohydrate and actually raises blood glucose levels. Studies have also shown that dogs fed on proper meat (NOT meat and animal derivatives or other such things) and vegetables tend to live longer than those on diets rich in corn and rice. Take a look at this. I am sorry, but Purina, et all are making food with the cheapest ingredients and charging over-the-top prices for it. Purina's food is NOT nutritious. It is full of corn, corn gluten, wheat gluten and cellulose. There are next to no nutritional benefits in any of those. I am sorry, but there's not. You might as well feed a dog sawdust. What foods have you tried and what exactly is your price range?

Bazaar1. I bet Purina doesn't advertise the fact that designing food to allow for larger portions can also be dangerous. Too much kibble at one time can cause bloat (which is quite often fatal). Especially in deep chested dogs like Lurchers and Collies. Take a large quantity of kibble and soak it for several hours. See how much bigger it gets and think of that amount of material in a dog's stomach. Smaller amounts of a better quality food is much better for a dog in the long run.

I'm having to take a deep breath here and answer without snark because your post is probably one of the most uppity, pompous and arrogant things I've read on here for a while (and that says a lot coming from me!)

Firstly whether my course was sponsored or not (it wasn't) is irrelevant, as actually DOING the tests is going to give xdow and i far superior understanding of nutrition than a jumped up know it all who's done some Internet research. Oh and thanks for the behavioural advice, I have no idea about that, its not like my degree in in behaviour and welfare or anything, (oh look there's the snark).

As for smaller amounts of a better quality food, I'm not sure if you purposely misread my post or not. Firstly the quantity of the food isn't the main issue behind bloating, it's the speed at which the dog eats and the height of the bowl, twisted/knotted stomachs often occur in breeds such as labs that devours the food in two mouthfuls. I do however agree that too much food with low nutritional value isn't good for a healthy dog, but again, this is an obesity management plan, the idea is to fill him up and get him the nutrition he needs without the excess fat. Feeding smaller portions of a healthy food is fine for a healthy dog, as long as you ensure they are getting the required amount, feeding a dog 100g of meat when he needs 200g is just as bad, if not worse, as you are essentially strarcing him, halving the nutrients you are giving him and doing exactly what you preach on about the 'poor quality foods' doing.

I'm done here, xdow I'd suggest you listen to your vet who's done many years in uni, not an Internet warrior, and also your dog, if he's happy and losing weight, keep at it

There was nothing arrogant, pompous, uppity, or anything else negative about my post. I stated a few facts and that was all.

Let's start on too much kibble not causing bloat. Many vets have found that is indeed a contributing factor. Why do you think that as many deep chested breed rescues, welfare organisations, and general rescues advise feeding 2-3 meals a day instead of one big one? It's certainly not for the sake of their health - it's for the health of the dogs! When I got my dog I was told in no uncertain terms to NOT feed him large amounts of food at a time and was told exactly why. Take a look at the following links (mind you I don't know why I bother supplying links because they are discarded anyway):

A Vet's Guide to Life.

ASPCA.

WebMD.

Vet Live.

As for me starving my dog. He never begs, hardly ever scavenges on walks, and seldom hovers around in the kitchen when food is being prepared. I can only guess that is because he is getting higher quality and more sustaining nutrition and does not need copious amounts of food to feel satisfied. Look at it this way. You would probably feel fuller for longer if you had just eaten a meal of chicken and veg than you would if you had just eaten the same amount of salad.

To address behavioural problems and poor nutrition. It is an established fact that nutrition contributes to the moods and temperaments of humans. Poor diets can cause negative behaviours and the same is being proven with dogs. You are telling xdow to keep up with the food her dog is on when it is full of poor ingredients and it has been proven that after time a dog fed on such food can develop medical problems thus triggering negative behaviour. So bad food like that is a known cause of negative behaviour! Have a look at this:

Dog Behaviour Clinic.

You have said that the college/university where you got your degree is in no way influenced by dog food manufacturers, but how do you know this? And where did the lecturer/s get their information/degrees? Did you ask them when there or did you request that information through the freedom of information act?

If I were xdow I would be asking the vet where he/she learned about nutrition. After all vets are trained to diagnose and treat physical ailments. Nutrition and behaviour are generally not their fields of speciality.

You can call me an internet warrior if you like, but at least I have spent well over a year reading numerous case studies and finding out the truth about the pet food industry.

my vet didn't recommend me this food, i asked my vet if this food would be a suitable option (as she suggested skinners light, chappie or the specialist hills food) she simply agreed that it would be worth trying, but at the same time said that he is healthy and well, other than being a bit beefy.

in regards to filling him up, he isn't given a massive amount of food - he is getting roughly 55g per meal. basically a tight packed covering of the bottom of his bowl, a similar amount to what would be in a large hand full.

as per the packaging guidelines, i worked out that around 200g per day is recommended for weight loss in a dog whose ideal weight is 20kg.
therefore he is receiving about 165g per day of kibble, leaving slight leeway for treats. (i.e. he's receiving roughly 500-550kcal/day. his recommended amount being around 750-800kcal/day at his ideal weight.)

his meals previous to switching were tiny. about 30g of food per meal, which had been reduced on our (previous) vets recommendation at a weigh-in last year, when he was already on a reduced amount (can't remember exactly how much, but for a dog of 20kg, he should have been on about 280g/day of his food, but he was barely getting a third of that by the time we switched)

this amount was barely covering half the bottom of his bowl, which would have been far too little to sustain him, so there was no wonder he scavenged.

they're not large meals he's on now anyway, so he's not in danger of bloat, it's just a slightly larger amount than what he was getting which has plenty of filler (those non-nutritional ingredients you mentioned) in it to make him feel fuller, which is exactly what we wanted and he seems to be happier for it.

i'm well aware of the dangers of bloat (we took on an elderly miniature dachshund after her elderly owner passed away, she bloated twice in a week. the first time she deflated naturally, but the second time this didn't happen. due to her advanced age, she wouldn't have survived an operation so the decision was made to let her go)
our dogs have always been fed and left to rest for at least an hour before we go even for a short walk.
Jake has his bowl raised off the ground on a small stool so he is eating at a better height too.

I know what you're trying to say about the food, yes, the pet food industry is a hideous place and X company pumps their products full of crap on the cheap, then throws thousands of pounds into marketing it to make it look goood, but that's business.

it's always going to go on.

at the moment though, for me to switch him to a higher quality food won't solve any of the predicament i'm currently in with his weight and scavenging as he'll be back onto tiny meals and searching for any crumbs he can find.

when he is at a more healthy weight, i will be switching him to a different diet, rather than feed him the maintenance amounts of this food as i very much would rather a named meat product was the first or second ingredient on the bag and that what i was feeding him wasn't bright yellow, but for the sake of improving his body score at the moment, i honestly believe that this product has a good chance of helping him.
perhaps time will prove me wrong but it's worth a shot for the moment.

i'm not being purposely defiant, you obviously feel very strongly about this issue, but he's my dog at the end of the day and i can choose to feed him how i like.
i'm trying to do my best for him by attempting to get some weight off him, maybe my method isn't the best, it certainly isn't in your view, but i could just leave him to it at the weight he's at forever more - a fate i believe would be far worse for him.

now please can we settle this, i do agree with your views, but for the time being, i will be continuing with this food until i am in a situation where i'm able to improve his diet. at this point i will look into what the best options are in my price range and select a food accordingly.

Just a quick update, we took Jake to be weighed today and he's now just over 28kg
a loss of 2kg since starting on this food, very happy at that

i know it's something strange to be giddy over, but his poos on this food are beautiful, they're the smallest and best formed stools he's ever produced and they have little to no odour as well! very pleased!

he's got a bit more wind than he used to have with his old food, but they're not malodorous so it's not really all that much of an issue as it doesn't bother him at all.

he's liking it though, definitely enjoying his meals and he's been much less hungry having been given the slightly larger amount of food as well.
his coat and skin are still in good condition. energy levels are great

just 5-6 more kg to go and i think he'll be good at that
so good results all round so far

Am glad you're getting good results and he's doing well!
My border collie bitch, after being spayed, actually lost weight, but shes putting abit on now, tbh, nothing worst than an overweight dog!

thank you
we're all really pleased with him
a bit of good news following what has been a pretty grim week in other areas.

our old collie bitch was always a little bit over weight, she was speyed after her first season.
she also had poor hips from a young age and couldn't walk far (though her spirit was willing, her body held her back)
but she never really went beyond that slight bit of extra lining in her fur jacket
she was quite good at self regulating we think as we had a bowl of kibble down all the time for her, as if she didn't pick at something often, she would sick up bile, so it was a necessity to have it there.

i'm just glad that my boy is happy to exercise, walk run and swim, battling the bulge with a dog that just doesn't want to move would be incredibly frustrating!