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Old 08-06-2013, 13:13
Faust
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Fair enough your eyesight isn't that great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity

"Visual acuity (VA) is acuteness or clearness of vision, which is dependent on the sharpness of the retinal focus within the eye and the sensitivity of the interpretative faculty of the brain."
Why do you say my eyesight isn't all that great? I said we all see the world differently. Example, I can read the inscription on the inside of a ladies wedding band which is rally tiny. You missed the point about distance, size of TV and softness of picture.
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Old 08-06-2013, 14:43
IQ1
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That said I have an iPad 2 and whilst I accept the screen looks brighter on the iPad 3 that's the only difference I can see when comparing the two side by side.

Well thank god I can tell the difference, the 132 PPI of the iPad 2 is a little basic, most people can clearly see the pixels, the 264 PPI of the iPad 3 is a massive improvement, some of the new phone screens are amazing with well over 400 PPI and full HD screens.

I'm obviously presuming that people just hold tablets at a normal comfortable distance as they are touchscreen operated.

Can I also point out that the brightness of iPads is user adjustable or automatic dependant on the ambient lighting and settings, I wouldn't bother to compare them side by side unless for some reason you needed the brightness set to max.


I also realise that sitting just shy of twelve feet away from a 42" plasma TV which produces a soft picture anyway leaves me little chance of seeing any difference between the two mediums.
What do you want me to say, get a better TV (full HD would help and watch programmes in HD if available) and sit closer depending on the size.

Why do you say my eyesight isn't all that great? I said we all see the world differently. Example, I can read the inscription on the inside of a ladies wedding band which is rally tiny. You missed the point about distance, size of TV and softness of picture.
Honestly you can perceive the world in anyway you like I really don't care if you want to watch TV through a par of binoculars. Considering you can't see the difference between the screens of the iPad 2 & 3 I really can't see what "distance, size of TV and softness of picture" has to do with this or the ability to read the inscriptions on ladies wedding bands.
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Old 08-06-2013, 15:17
garbageguy
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Test this, watch corry or another soap in HD then SD and compare the hair, and face, you can see sooo much more facial hair and hair strands in HD, SD the hair is all just a blur, , any sport you can see individual grass strands, in SD its just a green blur.
But my wife is the same, cant tell
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Old 08-06-2013, 15:59
gomezz
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The sofa and tv stays where they are!..........I've been told.
It will be a different story when the next furniture sales are on.
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Old 08-06-2013, 19:29
Faust
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Well thank god I can tell the difference, the 132 PPI of the iPad 2 is a little basic, most people can clearly see the pixels, the 264 PPI of the iPad 3 is a massive improvement, some of the new phone screens are amazing with well over 400 PPI and full HD screens.

I'm obviously presuming that people just hold tablets at a normal comfortable distance as they are touchscreen operated.

Can I also point out that the brightness of iPads is user adjustable or automatic dependant on the ambient lighting and settings, I wouldn't bother to compare them side by side unless for some reason you needed the brightness set to max.



What do you want me to say, get a better TV (full HD would help and watch programmes in HD if available) and sit closer depending on the size.



Honestly you can perceive the world in anyway you like I really don't care if you want to watch TV through a par of binoculars. Considering you can't see the difference between the screens of the iPad 2 & 3 I really can't see what "distance, size of TV and softness of picture" has to do with this or the ability to read the inscriptions on ladies wedding bands.
You really don't get it do you? You work on the premise that because you have convinced yourself you can see the difference between SD and HD and because I can't I must be missing something, be pitied or deficient in some way. As far as I am concerned I feel I am very lucky as to me my TV produces stunning pictures and my iPad 2 cannot be bettered. I'm genuinely unable to detect even a hint of the pixelation you claim to see with the iPad 2.
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Old 08-06-2013, 20:23
IQ1
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.......you have convinced yourself you can see the difference between SD and HD and because I can't I must be missing something, be pitied or deficient in some way.
I'm currently watching Argentina v England on BBC2 HD, obviously I'm only imagining that it looks any better than it would on their SD channel.

*Luckily like you my imagination is excellent.*
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Old 08-06-2013, 20:37
IQ1
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I'm genuinely unable to detect even a hint of the pixelation you claim to see with the iPad 2.
For any body that hasn't got, seen or compared the retina display iPads with the older iPads 1 & 2, then have a look at this review and the photos.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/14/2870533/ipad-review
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Old 08-06-2013, 22:51
markdyer72
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As you say Graham, your daughter can't see the difference between HD and SD. I think people just have to accept that we all see the world differently, hence some will be able to see the difference whilst others like my wife and I won't.

I also realise that sitting just shy of twelve feet away from a 42" plasma TV which produces a soft picture anyway leaves me little chance of seeing any difference between the two mediums.

That said I have an iPad 2 and whilst I accept the screen looks brighter on the iPad 3 that's the only difference I can see when comparing the two side by side.

i also have an iPad 2 and the OH has an iPad 3 and yes theres not much difference until u put the camera on then i'm afraid theres a massive difference blatent to even the partially sighted i would thing.....
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Old 08-06-2013, 23:07
Faust
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I'm currently watching Argentina v England on BBC2 HD, obviously I'm only imagining that it looks any better than it would on their SD channel.

*Luckily like you my imagination is excellent.*
Absolutely it is - for a start the eye actually sees an image upside down and the brain converts it to the right way up. There are plenty more examples of where the brain tricks the eye. So what was the point you were making again?
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Old 08-06-2013, 23:08
Faust
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i also have an iPad 2 and the OH has an iPad 3 and yes theres not much difference until u put the camera on then i'm afraid theres a massive difference blatent to even the partially sighted i would thing.....
You have lost me there, what do you mean until you put the camera on them?
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Old 08-06-2013, 23:12
Faust
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For any body that hasn't got, seen or compared the retina display iPads with the older iPads 1 & 2, then have a look at this review and the photos.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/14/2870533/ipad-review
Oh do me a favour, do you really see the world zoomed in and magnified like the images shown in that link. The human eye doesn't detect pixels of that size at normal magnification.
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Old 08-06-2013, 23:48
IQ1
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Oh do me a favour, do you really see the world zoomed in and magnified like the images shown in that link. The human eye doesn't detect pixels of that size at normal magnification.
I could easily see the pixels on an iPad 2 and at normal viewing distance, that's why I waited until the retina display came out before getting one. My OH is waiting for the new iPad mini retina as she also has very good visual acuity and wants one she can fit in her hand bag.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:46
Faust
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I could easily see the pixels on an iPad 2 and at normal viewing distance, that's why I waited until the retina display came out before getting one.
Of course you could!
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:56
technologist
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There is a new paper on Visual acctuity - Quantitative Evaluation of Human Visual Perception for Multiple Screens and Multiple Codecs
published by SMPTE -
"" It presents the psychophysical concepts of simple acuity, hyperacuity, and Snellen acuity to examine the visibility of compression artifacts for the MPEG-4/H.264 video compression standard. It looks at the newest emerging international compression standard for High-Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC). ""

It is Free for SMPTE members and $20 for Non members.....
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:49
IQ1
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Of course you could!
Just because you haven't got the ability to see the individual pixels doesn't mean others can't. The following is from the*avforums-iPad3-review.

"With the increased pixels per inch from 132 of the previous iPad to 264 on this new one, you canít see the individual pixels that make up the screen and this makes for one of the best tablet displays I have seen to date."
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Old 09-06-2013, 16:31
Faust
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Just because you haven't got the ability to see the individual pixels doesn't mean others can't. The following is from the*avforums-iPad3-review.

"With the increased pixels per inch from 132 of the previous iPad to 264 on this new one, you canít see the individual pixels that make up the screen and this makes for one of the best tablet displays I have seen to date."
My thoughts being you're a salespersons wet dream, sorry and all that.

As said previously, watching an already soft picture on a 720p plasma from a distance of twelve feet, one will not see any benefit from HD.
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Old 09-06-2013, 20:40
IQ1
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As said previously, watching an already soft picture on a 720p plasma from a distance of twelve feet, one will not see any benefit from HD.
As I said previously get a better TV and sit closer to it or alternatively you could just stop moaning that you can't see the difference.
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:13
grahamlthompson
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My thoughts being you're a salespersons wet dream, sorry and all that.

As said previously, watching an already soft picture on a 720p plasma from a distance of twelve feet, one will not see any benefit from HD.
The best HD pictures I have ever seen was a a Pioneer Kuro plasma display (HD Ready), The fact that you can't see the difference is

either you need to see a optician

or

your display is crap. (most likely). My son still has a 40" 768 line Sony display. The difference between true HD and SD is instantly obvious. At the very least the higher bitrate and more efficient compression is bound to deliver more real video information. Downscaling 1080 lines to 768 lines is easy, compared to upscaling 576 lines to 768 there's no contest. In one case the process has real video data, in the other it's guessed. In either case your posting is flawed

Downscaling images from more pixels using a photo editing package is easy, the opposite is not.

Watching 1920 x 1080 compared to 720 x 576 on a Asus HD tablet is instantly obvious.

Try setting the graphic card adaptor on yout PC to the nearest to 576 lines and state you can't see the difference in detail resolutuion when set to 1:1 pixel resolution. :
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:30
mwardy
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There is a new paper on Visual acctuity - Quantitative Evaluation of Human Visual Perception for Multiple Screens and Multiple Codecs
published by SMPTE -
"" It presents the psychophysical concepts of simple acuity, hyperacuity, and Snellen acuity to examine the visibility of compression artifacts for the MPEG-4/H.264 video compression standard. It looks at the newest emerging international compression standard for High-Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC). ""

It is Free for SMPTE members and $20 for Non members.....
I'm not about to shell out 20 dollars for this because the vast majority of it will be written at a level that I, as an ordinary member of the public, will not be able to follow. (Being untrained but not an idiot, I seem to get on OK with some EBU documentation though. And I've found out the difference between simple acuity and hyperacuity working from the keywords in the abstract--isn't the human vision system cool! ) Are there any conclusions that would be of general interest?

Tia.
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Old 09-06-2013, 22:53
markdyer72
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You have lost me there, what do you mean until you put the camera on them?
u mean side bu side u cant tell any difference between the quality the cameras on the ipad 2 and the ipad 3
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Old 09-06-2013, 23:11
Faust
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u mean side bu side u cant tell any difference between the quality the cameras on the ipad 2 and the ipad 3
Sorry, I'm still none the wiser what it is you are trying to say. Your sentence makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 09-06-2013, 23:28
Faust
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Grahamthompson writes......
The best HD pictures I have ever seen was a a Pioneer Kuro plasma display (HD Ready), The fact that you can't see the difference is - either you need to see a optician - or
Optician gave me an almost clean bill of health a couple of months ago, with the exception I now need a mild prescription for reading.

your display is crap. (most likely)
720p Panasonic PX60 professionally calibrated. Having said that I have been to a couple of local independents who have dedicated viewing booths for displaying HD, 3D and high end audio. Whilst I can see some improvement over my own TV, hand on heart I would never accept a bet if I had to choose which was SD and which was HD. The difference to me at any distance is minimal, it simply isn't an issue.

However, there is now plenty of evidence to show I am far from alone in not being able to detect much if any difference between SD and HD. Lots of people struggle to see any difference. Now you can blame it on people's eyesight, cheap TV's, poorly set up TV's blah blah blah. The reasons don't matter, if you can't tell then you can't tell. As far as I'm aware it's not been classed as a crime.

I'm sure you posted earlier that your daughter cannot tell the difference either. One hopes you are not so disparaging in your comments towards her?
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:59
grahamlthompson
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I'm sure you posted earlier that your daughter cannot tell the difference either. One hopes you are not so disparaging in your comments towards her?
She will freely admit her eyesight isn't brilliant. Son still has a 768 line Sony Bravia. You can tell instantly which is HD, in fact the difference between my 1080 line telly and his is marginal. Blu-ray playback has a tiny bit of motion artefacts, it's down to lack of 24p support on the older set.
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Old 10-06-2013, 15:11
misar
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Good to see that the regulars have managed to keep yet another pointless debate going for over a week.

As I have said before, for 99.99% of viewers what matters is the quality of the content not the quality of the picture, provided the latter is adequate to avoid undue distraction even on larger screens. They achieve that by sitting a sensible distance from the screen so that both SD and HD channels look OK most of the time. Then, as pointed out by Faust, you no longer notice a sufficient difference between SD or HD broadcasts of the same programme to worry about it - especially if the programme is actually worth watching.

Possibly those on here who do worry about SD vs HD actually have the least adequate equipment, ie which does a particularly bad job of displaying SD on a large screen.
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Old 10-06-2013, 18:08
IQ1
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Good to see that the regulars have managed to keep yet another pointless debate going for over a week.

As I have said before, for 99.99% of viewers what matters is the quality of the content not the quality of the picture, provided the latter is adequate to avoid undue distraction even on larger screens. They achieve that by sitting a sensible distance from the screen so that both SD and HD channels look OK most of the time. Then, as pointed out by Faust, you no longer notice a sufficient difference between SD or HD broadcasts of the same programme to worry about it - especially if the programme is actually worth watching.

Possibly those on here who do worry about SD vs HD actually have the least adequate equipment, ie which does a particularly bad job of displaying SD on a large screen.
I agree it is pointless as we're all using different hardware/software, that's not just TV's and set top boxes but Eyes & Brains also.
A lot of my friends and relatives just want a big thing in the corner of the room with moving images on it, all I see on their TV's (apart from intellectual soaps) is banding from the LED's, rubbish blacks, light bleed etc all of which I find really distracting, luckily for them ignorance is bliss and yes content is king as long as it is a soap or Ant & Dec (each to their own).

I watched the TT highlights on itv4, you will be pleased to know my 50" plasma did a surprisingly good job of displaying their SD broadcast. Of course I would rather have watched the TT in person or in HD, but as there is plenty of quality HD on Freesat I don't mind watching the odd SD program (but normally not sport as it generally looks really shit in SD).

Can I just point out that there are other forums for discussing the "quality of content" as that's what interests you and others the most.
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