[ColinE66]

Hi All,

Hopefully there is an expert among you who would kindly give definitive advice about what this term means, in relation to The Carphone Warehouse.

I'm sure all of you are familiar with the concept of popping in for an early phone upgrade with perhaps a switch to a new service provider (carrier).

So does it mean;

(a) They pay your current carrier the 'residual' balance for the remaining term of your contract

(b) they take over the contractual obligations you have with your current carrier

(c) both (a) and (b)

(d) something else?

I ask because four years ago, I moved my daughter's mobile from Three to Orange and I've only just noticed (amazingly, I know - don't ask) that they (Three) are still taking money from my bank account each month (well over £1000 in total)!

I learned today that when that contract ended, it automatically continued on a rolling monthly basis and was advised by Three that this was stipulated in my contract.

Expecting Three to be unsympathetic to my request for a refund I am wondering if I have any recourse to the Carphone Warehouse who gave me the impression that I had just walked away from Three at the time I switched to Orange. If that is not a good idea then I may have to approach Three on the basis that it is immoral and unethical to continue to charge a customer for a service that they are clearly not using when it is well within their power to point out to that customer that something is clearly amiss. I should add that I have received no statements from Three in all that time which may have set alarm bells ringing.

Opinions anybody, please? I fear this may be a difficult battle...

[alan1302]

I'd phone Three and just ask for the position on it first.

Although they would probably be within their rights to keep the money as they could say you should have noticed the money going out each month.

[ColinE66]

Thanks but I'd much rather know the answer to my specific question if you happen to know that. I don't want any recorded conversations with Three where I might inadvertantly weaken my position through lack of knowledge and I think it is almost a certainty that Three will play the 'small print' card straight away. On the other hand, I can formulate a strategy based upon knowing where I stand and prepare accordingly with the answer to my initial question.

[Step666]

The definition of an 'early upgrade' varies depending on the situation - different people use it to refer to different things.
Strictly speaking it would be upgrading your contract before either the end of the contract or before your standard upgrade date. But some people (mostly individuals rather than organisations) simply mean getting a new phone before the end of their contract, even if that means signing a second contract.



To start with, Three have done nothing wrong and any arguments about 'morality' are rendered null and void by the terms of your contract.
It's your responsibility to inform a network if you wish to cancel, failure to do so is not the network's fault.

As for CPW, it's extremely difficult to say whether they did anything wrong or not - you being left with a certain impression doesn't mean they mis-advised you and even if they did, it's all but impossible to prove at this stage, neither you nor anyone else can safely say what was or was not said.

When you moved from Three to Orange, did you not transfer the number?

[-GONZO-]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

So does it mean;

(a) They pay your current carrier the 'residual' balance for the remaining term of your contract

(b) they take over the contractual obligations you have with your current carrier

(c) both (a) and (b)

(d) something else?

If you choose to upgrade early then its your responsibility to pay the remaining contract fee.
If you choose to change to a different mobile operator then its also your responsibility to inform the current provider that you wish to cancel your contract.
You say the contract ended, but it didnt as you didn't cancel it. All the contractual end date means is that you cannot cancel before that date unless your willing to pay off the remaining contract fee, after that date you are free to cancel at any time.

[ColinE66]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Step666

The definition of an 'early upgrade' varies depending on the situation - different people use it to refer to different things.

In this case, I am referring to upgrading handset and switching provider prior to the end of what I now understand to be defined as the 'minimum contract'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Step666

Three have done nothing wrong and any arguments about 'morality' are rendered null and void by the terms of your contract.
It's your responsibility to inform a network if you wish to cancel, failure to do so is not the network's fault.

Yes, I understand that, by the terms of the contract, Three have done nothing wrong. But I don't think that necessarily renders the point about morality entirely moot. Morality has nothing to do with contractual obligation and knowingly taking money for a service that you know isn't being used is unethical IMO. Now, I appreciate that they have no incentive to 'mine' their data and identify cases such as mine but that doesn't make it right. Never had a single letter from them in four years. Nothing. Not even a letter about changes to T&C's which seem unlikely to not have changed in that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Step666

As for CPW, it's extremely difficult to say whether they did anything wrong or not - you being left with a certain impression doesn't mean they mis-advised you and even if they did, it's all but impossible to prove at this stage, neither you nor anyone else can safely say what was or was not said.

Indeed. That is why I asked the original question: If, procedurally or technically, I had an understanding of what it entailed for them to 'buy-out' the contract, then it may be the case that I could argue with them on some basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Step666

When you moved from Three to Orange, did you not transfer the number?

No. Got a new number, new phone, new carrier....

[ColinE66]

Quote:

Originally Posted by -GONZO-

If you choose to upgrade early then its your responsibility to pay the remaining contract fee.

That's interesting because I've used CPW for my own handset upgrades many times (the problem contract was my daughter's phone) and I've never had to do anything; CPW have always handled everything and said as much to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by -GONZO-

If you choose to change to a different mobile operator then its also your responsibility to inform the current provider that you wish to cancel your contract.

And that, in part, is how some of the current problem arose, I supsect; I'd upgraded many times with CPW and always left it in their hands, per their assurances, and this was the first and only occasion that I'd switched carrier. It's possible that I assumed that they could handle it all and it's equally possible that they didn't give me the required information to take whatever action was incumbent upon me. I honestly can't remember...

Quote:

Originally Posted by -GONZO-

You say the contract ended, but it didnt as you didn't cancel it. All the contractual end date means is that you cannot cancel before that date unless your willing to pay off the remaining contract fee, after that date you are free to cancel at any time.

Yes, unfortunately I only became aware of this today. Silly me thought a 12-month contract lasted for a year.

[Step666]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

In this case, I am referring to upgrading handset and switching provider prior to the end of what I now understand to be defined as the 'minimum contract'

That's the sort of situation when 'upgrade' shouldn't be used. It's a new contract, not an upgrade and referring to it as such ultimately causes the sort of confusion seen in this thread.
Which is not to criticise you, it's a general point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

Yes, I understand that, by the terms of the contract, Three have done nothing wrong. But I don't think that necessarily renders the point about morality entirely moot. Morality has nothing to do with contractual obligation and knowingly taking money for a service that you know isn't being used is unethical IMO. Now, I appreciate that they have no incentive to 'mine' their data and identify cases such as mine but that doesn't make it right. Never had a single letter from them in four years. Nothing. Not even a letter about changes to T&C's which seem unlikely to not have changed in that time.

Lets be fair, you believe what Three have done to be wrong primarily because of your situation. Other people won't necessarily agree with you and neither side could be deemed to be correct.
That's precisely why contracts have terms and conditions, because morals and ethics are completely subjective.

The best you can do is contact Three and see if they might refund you as a gesture of goodwill.
But, whether they do or not would be entirely up to them, your feelings on the matter wouldn't be a deciding factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

Indeed. That is why I asked the original question: If, procedurally or technically, I had an understanding of what it entailed for them to 'buy-out' the contract, then it may be the case that I could argue with them on some basis.

And as I said, it's impossible to answer your question.
Whatever your understanding was, there's simply no way to determine whether it was due to you being misinformed or that you misinterpreted what you were told. And unless you have a pretty strong case that you were misinformed, CPW aren't going to accept responsibility for matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

That's interesting because I've used CPW for my own handset upgrades many times (the problem contract was my daughter's phone) and I've never had to do anything; CPW have always handled everything and said as much to me...

If you're upgrading as in genuinely upgrading (ie staying on the same network), that's how it would be.
But if you switch network, you need to give notice of cancellation to the existing network. CPW can't do that as the account is yours, they have no power or right to cancel your old contract for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

Yes, unfortunately I only became aware of this today. Silly me thought a 12-month contract lasted for a year.

It's the same as any other service agreement that I can think of.
At the end of your minimum term, your home broadband doesn't just stop. Same goes for gas or electricity - even the likes of car insurance.
So, with that in mind, why would mobile phones be any different?

[ColinE66]

I don't want to get side-tracked about the morality issue, here. We all know why T&C's do and must exist.

But, let's be equally fair, it's very easy for you to say that my opinion is based solely upon my predicament. That's a little harsh considering you don't even know me. I'm sure that many people would agree that it is something of a sharp practice to not even send a customer notification that his minimum term has been reached or a statement in four years. They used to come through the door as regular as clockwork.

As for other automatically-renewing contracts, yes, they are prevalent but they don't all operate as continual month-on-month roll-overs. My car insurance, for example, renews for another year IF I do nothing upon receiving written advice from them that this will occur unless I say otherwise. I think that's a little different..

I actually started this thread in the vain hope that somebody might say something encouraging like

'CPW are always overstating how easily they can get somebody out of a contract - see this huge thread here'
or
'CPW are usually able to act as an agent for you when switching providers in-store per an agreement with these suppliers; x, y, and z'.
or
'CPW advisors are taught as, part of their training, to always inform customers of their need to notify their outgoing supplier when switching in-store'
or
..something else relevant to my original question...

It was a forlorn hope...

If anybody has any useful input besides the fact that Three have, technically, done nothing wrong (which I already knew) or that I have no proof of being misinformed by CPW (which I already knew), then please chime in. In case I have not been clear, I am looking for assistance rather than to be chided for being remiss in not reading the small print of my contract.

[BigD2609]

Useful input from DS! You'll be lucky Colin.

Three no longer communicate with their customers with letters everything is done via text message and logging into your account. Doesn't help I know but might explain why you haven't heard from them?

[ColinE66]

Thanks BigD. That is a useful snippet of information and would certainly explain the lack of correspondence...

[-GONZO-]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinE66

I'm sure that many people would agree that it is something of a sharp practice to not even send a customer notification that his minimum term has been reached or a statement in four years.

The only logical reason as to why you never received a statement in 4 years is because I would think someone had maybe requested paperless billing at some stage.
Three do however send a text every month to tell you your bill is ready to view via My3, but as you've not been using that Sim then you would not of received those notifications.
One thing that does have me rather baffled though is how could you not realise money has been going out of your account for 4 years?
One bit of advise I could recommend other than contacting Three would be to contact Martin Lewis: Money Saving Expert and see what he could advise and if there maybe some glimmer of hope of getting your money back.

[ColinE66]

The statements just stopped coming at around the time that she switched to Orange. Had they not, I'd have been alerted to the contract rolling over. Yes, it is odd that I didn't notice the charges but I have not managed my affairs very diligently in the past five years; having been suffering with depression for that time it wasn't upper-most in my mind to reconcile my banking. At no stage did I request paper-less billing for this account, for the same reason - it just wasn't important to me to switch to paper-less.

Thanks for the lead onto Martin Lewis - I'll follow that up...