Digital Spy

Search Digital Spy
 

DS Forums

 
 

River in The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13-06-2013, 12:50
thesilentdrum
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 27

Hi guys, I rarely log in to post on here, but I've been doing a rewatch of Nu-Who and have a few questions about River in TPO and TBB..

So when the story starts, Rory has been erased from time, he never existed, so if he never existed, he was almost certainly never around to conceive Melody with Amy in the Tardis.. So how can River be in the episode? Surely if her father never existed neither did she.. And then at the end during the Wedding, how can River be there if the Doctor never existed to give Amy the book to bring the Doctor back? Because surely for River to exist (in that form anyway) the Tardis needs to exist for her to become timelord and therefore the Doctor needs to exist.

Can anyone shed some light onto the situation?

Thanks!
thesilentdrum is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 13-06-2013, 13:09
SexyDavros
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 47
Timey-Wimey.

That's the problem with Science Fiction stuff, a writer such as Moffat probably hasn't truly planned out from the outset the plot, just had some good interesting plot lines, as a result he can get so tangled-up in paradox's that you just use the timey-wimey excuse to hide bad writing. Plus fans often "cover" for the plot holes with interesting ideas, probably addressing the issues (but not necessarily thought about by the actual writer)
SexyDavros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 13:11
Shevk
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Online
Posts: 627
In both cases a causal factor in her conception was erased but the effect remained. A device that Moffat is keen on using even though it doesn't really make sense.

Amy was able to exist even though her parents were erased from time. River is able to exist at one point even though neither her father nor her maternal grandparents ever existed, And they call Clara the impossible girl....

It's nothing compared to the fact that in the same story the Doctor is able to escape the Pandorica because his future self appears.
Shevk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 13:50
summer_ste
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,800
Not Timey-Wimey at all. Most wrongly used phrase on this forum!

It was explained earlier in the season that even when something is erased from time through the cracks, it leaves traces, and the things that it influenced before it was erased, remain influenced.

For example, the duck pond in The Eleventh Hour. There are no longer any ducks, no-one can remember it ever having any ducks, but they continue to refer to it as the duck pond.

Whether this rule makes sense in the personal opinion of an individual viewer is beside the point, it's science fiction. As long as the rule is established (which it was) and followed (which it was) then there's no problem.
No continuity problems at all, nothing to do with Moffat not planning anything.

Amy herself still exists even though her parents have been erased from time.
summer_ste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 13:58
thesilentdrum
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 27
Not Timey-Wimey at all. Most wrongly used phrase on this forum!

It was explained earlier in the season that even when something is erased from time through the cracks, it leaves traces, and the things that it influenced before it was erased, remain influenced.

For example, the duck pond in The Eleventh Hour. There are no longer any ducks, no-one can remember it ever having any ducks, but they continue to refer to it as the duck pond.

Whether this rule makes sense in the personal opinion of an individual viewer is beside the point, it's science fiction. As long as the rule is established (which it was) and followed (which it was) then there's no problem.
No continuity problems at all, nothing to do with Moffat not planning anything.

Amy herself still exists even though her parents have been erased from time.
I understand this, but surely River hadn't even been conceived yet so how can she still exist? The cracks left traces but how can it leave a trace of something that hasn't happened yet?
thesilentdrum is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 14:01
ukgnome
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 465
Imagine if you will a straight line, and at the end of that line it splits into two. At the end of one of the splits is a sausage and at the other is a vast pan of cabbage.

What has this got to do with a paradox you might ask, and well you would do so to ask. The answer of course is this linear dilemma is what Moffat was probably thinking about when he wrote paradoxical plot holes. If he had spent more time thinking about the mechanics of time and the entropy of chaos then this could be neatly explained by the disorder or the universe that has occurred due to the absence of the timelords.
ukgnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 14:57
johnnysaucepn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,040
It's a bit silly to try and track cause-and-effect when the whole central conceit is that causality and reality are breaking down. They're not plot holes.

How can Amy exist if her parents disappeared?
How can River exist if one of her parents disappeared?
How can the Saturnynians exist if their planet was swallowed?
Why did Amy run away with the Doctor if she didn't have anyone to marry?
How can it be a duck pond if it's never had any ducks?
How could the Byzantium have crashed if the Angels didn't exist?
For that matter, how could the soldiers still be dead if the Angels didn't exist?
How can the Pandorica exist if the Alliance that created it no longer exist?

It's not just a case of ignoring the paradoxes, it's a question of accepting that paradoxes themselves just don't apply.

Okay, you want an analogy? Buy a book. Rip out several of the pages at random. Read the book. You have no awareness or memory of what happened on those pages that are missing, and yet the characters and events still exist - the later pages don't just turn blank.

Granted, the characters in the book aren't able to perceive the ripping of the pages, like the Doctor, the Alliance and the Saturnynians could - if they could, they might react the same way.
johnnysaucepn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 17:05
sebbie3000
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sutton
Posts: 4,519
Timey-Wimey.

That's the problem with Science Fiction stuff, a writer such as Moffat probably hasn't truly planned out from the outset the plot, just had some good interesting plot lines, as a result he can get so tangled-up in paradox's that you just use the timey-wimey excuse to hide bad writing. Plus fans often "cover" for the plot holes with interesting ideas, probably addressing the issues (but not necessarily thought about by the actual writer)
As was pointed out continuously throughout the series, things that are erased by the crack disappear from existence, but their effects stay behind.

Quite a few examples of this happen in most episodes, not least Any herself - who has had her family erased before the Doctor even gets there. It was explained using the duck-pond analogy (how can a duck-pond be a duck-pond without any ducks? Because of the ducks having been there before).

So, clearly planned out, with the rules set out over a period of time, and the inherent logic of it in place before that happens.
sebbie3000 is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2013, 17:07
sebbie3000
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sutton
Posts: 4,519
Imagine if you will a straight line, and at the end of that line it splits into two. At the end of one of the splits is a sausage and at the other is a vast pan of cabbage.

What has this got to do with a paradox you might ask, and well you would do so to ask. The answer of course is this linear dilemma is what Moffat was probably thinking about when he wrote paradoxical plot holes. If he had spent more time thinking about the mechanics of time and the entropy of chaos then this could be neatly explained by the disorder or the universe that has occurred due to the absence of the timelords.
Why not just use the explanation from the episodes? The one that was set up and explained throughout the series?
sebbie3000 is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 10:44
ukgnome
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 465
Why not just use the explanation from the episodes? The one that was set up and explained throughout the series?
Because I think it's important to learn about entropy - it's what the great Douglas Adams would of wanted
ukgnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 11:20
ozymandiasjones
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 14
Time and space is never, ever going to make any kind of sense, and the best possible advice on how to deal with that: Cheer up. Have some ice cream.
ozymandiasjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 11:55
johnnysaucepn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,040
Originally Posted by ukgnome
If he had spent more time thinking about the mechanics of time and the entropy of chaos then this could be neatly explained by the disorder or the universe that has occurred due to the absence of the timelords.
Because I think it's important to learn about entropy - it's what the great Douglas Adams would of wanted
I'm not sure how entropy fits into this picture at all, let alone how the presence or lack of Time Lords affects it at all.
johnnysaucepn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 12:50
ukgnome
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 465
I'm not sure how entropy fits into this picture at all, let alone how the presence or lack of Time Lords affects it at all.
entropy is commonly associated with the amount of order, disorder, and/or chaos in a thermodynamic system

A thermodynamic system is a precisely specified macroscopic region of the universe, defined by boundaries or walls of particular natures, together with the physical surroundings of that region, which determine processes that are allowed to affect the interior of the region

As for the Time lords, one of the things (according to Dr Nine and Ten) was that they maintained the universe, essentially balancing out the chaos (see fathers day and rise of the cybermen.)

The Reapers and travel to Pete's world are a result of chaos. Entropy leads to chaos, chaos leads to holes in the universe etc etc
ukgnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 12:53
grizzlyvamp
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Limbo
Posts: 1,026
Not Timey-Wimey at all. Most wrongly used phrase on this forum!.
There is a bit of timey wimey to it. The explanation of the episode doesn't quite cover everything and timey wimey covers what isn't covered. That's the thing when you get problems like that (in time travel in general not just in Doctor Who) timey wimey (though a Who invention, as far as I'm aware) is a good way of explaining such a resolution. You'll find that it is not used wrongly that often.
grizzlyvamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 13:14
johnnysaucepn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,040
entropy is commonly associated with the amount of order, disorder, and/or chaos in a thermodynamic system.

As for the Time lords, one of the things (according to Dr Nine and Ten) was that they maintained the universe, essentially balancing out the chaos (see fathers day and rise of the cybermen.)

The Reapers and travel to Pete's world are a result of chaos. Entropy leads to chaos, chaos leads to holes in the universe etc etc
Ah, I can see where the confusion has arisen. An increase in entropy is not chaotic, or the result of damage. Quite the opposite, it's inevitable. The Time Lords regulated time travel and dimensional travel, but not entropy. Entropy doesn't lead to chaos, it leads to the heat death of the universe. And there's no way that it leads to the holes in the universe at all - that was an explosion across time, not a gradual progression through time.
johnnysaucepn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 14:12
ukgnome
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 465
Ah, I can see where the confusion has arisen. An increase in entropy is not chaotic, or the result of damage. Quite the opposite, it's inevitable. The Time Lords regulated time travel and dimensional travel, but not entropy. Entropy doesn't lead to chaos, it leads to the heat death of the universe. And there's no way that it leads to the holes in the universe at all - that was an explosion across time, not a gradual progression through time.
I never said Chaos theory made sense, just that it could be used to answer questions such as this, it doesn't alter the theory that entropy leads to chaos, or doesn't lead to chaos. My head hurts, it's friday and all these numbers are now in my mind and I started this *groan*

Where are the Black and White guardians when you need them
ukgnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 14:26
johnnysaucepn
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,040
I never said Chaos theory made sense, just that it could be used to answer questions such as this, it doesn't alter the theory that entropy leads to chaos, or doesn't lead to chaos. My head hurts, it's friday and all these numbers are now in my mind and I started this *groan*

Where are the Black and White guardians when you need them
Do you mean just ideas about chaos, or actual Chaos Theory? Probably doesn't matter.

I guess the essence of the argument is: regardless of how causality usually functions, like most things, you can't really expect it to work the same when you start blowing bloody great holes in it.
johnnysaucepn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 14:55
ukgnome
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 465
....., you can't really expect it to work the same when you start blowing bloody great holes in it.
Truly a mantra to live by, and is the reason why the seemingly paradoxical nature of Pandorica \ Big bang is apparent.

By Jove, by working together we have solved this conundrum : - All the events happen because the universe has a bloody big hole it it.
ukgnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2013, 14:58
MinkytheDog
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,559
...when the story starts, Rory has been erased from time, he never existed, so if he never existed, he was almost certainly never around to conceive Melody with Amy in the Tardis.. So how can River be in the episode? Surely if her father never existed neither did she.. And then at the end during the Wedding, how can River be there if the Doctor never existed to give Amy the book to bring the Doctor back? Because surely for River to exist (in that form anyway) the Tardis needs to exist for her to become timelord and therefore the Doctor needs to exist.

Can anyone shed some light onto the situation?

Thanks!
It's actually incredibly simple.

River existed because she WAS born and she WAS conceived in the Tardis because the Doctor DID exist.

The River we saw was from a far later point of the timeline that we were seeing being created - she was the end result of ALL of the events - including the ones we had not yet seen transpire - such as the Doctor being "remembered" by Amy and Rory.

It only APPEARED to us that she couldn't exist because we had not YET seen Rory and the Doctor returned to existence - but from River's perspective, all of those events had already happened.

Basically - everything we've ever seen of River with the exception of her death in the library and her "virtual" appearence in the last episode was River's life-story - her personal history - which included her dad and the Doctor temporarily ceasing to exist.

From River's view point, her dad and the Doctor "nearly didn't make it to the wedding" - that's all.
MinkytheDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 22:08
bennythedip
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 872
I am watching this 2 parter tonight and was thinking yes, there is no way river can exist if rory has been erased from history, then I found this old thread and after reading this I am none the wiser. Anyway back to my rewatch...
bennythedip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 22:22
Theophile
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,195
Time and space is never, ever going to make any kind of sense, and the best possible advice on how to deal with that: Cheer up. Have some ice cream.
Thread over; we have a winner!
Theophile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 21:19
sandydune
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,402
Originally Posted by bennythedip
I am watching this 2 parter tonight and was thinking yes, there is no way river can exist if rory has been erased from history, then I found this old thread and after reading this I am none the wiser. Anyway back to my rewatch...
A rewatch might be easier, there always seem to be parts of the story you come across, you missed the first time round.
Rory could have possibly just paused but to him, he could be just waiting and then bang, River appears, just like that and then she's gone until the next time.
sandydune is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:46.