So are they still together, got bored reading all the posts,

Yes and very happy it seems from FB /Twitter.

No, I'm just saying why Victor might still harbour some resentment towards Shell.



Yes I agree.

Yes, so it was. Not Davina's finest hour. She really had it in for Rachel, and could not have made it clearer that she preferred Luke and Bex. That was the series when I finally decided that I had had enough of her.

No, sorry. But there are quite a lot of forum posts about it; in the long thread about how disgusting they are, it takes until something like page 10 before someone points out what it actually shows.

Yes, but only because Heaven felt strongly enough about it to bring it up on BOTS. All kinds of distasteful things might have happened over the years that no one cared that much about. It was obvious in 2012 that Mark himself didn't feel that strongly about it.

Well she did walk into the bathroom and find him standing in the middle of the floor shaving his arse. I can see how that might put someone off a bit.



There are various reasons why BB might prefer one winner to another - personal preference is an obvious one - but unless someone can produce actual evidence, along the lines I suggested, it seems pointless speculation. It is very noticeable that no one ever says "it is obvious that BB wants my favourite housemate to win" or "my favourite housemate is obviously BB's chosen one". We tend to think those we like best get the worst edit, because we take the trouble to examine their edit, to look at the clips and tweets about them, and notice what is shown and what is missed out.

You are right that I had forgotten the damaging cut and splice edit about Jay and Louise, though I noticed it at the time: it has never been referred to since; once it was made clear (on here, not by BB) that it was not a true incident everyone seemed to lose interest. Compare that with the literally hundreds of references to an incident between Aaron and Faye that was misleadingly edited to look as if they had had a longer falling out than they had. But that is not fair play: if people make a big thing of one edit, claiming it shows that BB did not want Aaron to win, they should make at least (since I think the impression it gave was worse) as big a thing of the other edit, and claim to it showed that BB did not want Jay to win. But obviously that will not happen: a bad edit for someone we like is horrible, but a bad edit for someone we don't like is just what they deserve, they were probably like that anyway.

During Maisy's time on there. It wasn't 'discussed' in the sense of bringing the psych on or anything, but they cracked some jokes about it, then did that gag with the toy aeroplane.


Ha, no. It was not as I remembered it. I read every single one of Aaron's posts to see what he DID see. On three separate occasions he simply blanked a question about whether he had had a bad edit, answering it instead by talking about how he used the edit. From which I deduce that he would far rather see himself (and have us see him) as a consummate player than as some kind of victim. As with the frosted flakes comment I quoted above: he knew that the incident would bring a lot of attention to those involved, and that he had not been in it, so he simply contrived a drama with himself at the centre, to make sure that if they were shown, so would he be.

It was Tom who actually said the edit had been fair, not Aaron; but Aaron would not play the game on here people were hoping for, agreeing that BB had been picking on him.



And it was with some surprise that I saw Tom's tweet that it was his third Christmas with Alex. Not many BB couples have made it that far.

Hmmmmm

That was when he spoke on here after his "disagreement" with Aaron and Faye.

I didn't want his Q&A to turn sour as Aaron's did so I didn't say anything back then, but his radio interview when he was still friends with Aaron and Faye was very diff.

I'm not sure if you can still hear the show and I can't post links to individual posts on my phone but here is one of the things Tom said:


http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1643614&highlight=aaron+faye+twitcam

I do feel that Tom changed his tune since he stopped being so friendly with Faye and Aaron.

Eta re your other comment about Aaron sidestepping questions about being unfairly edited, I think you're probably correct with the thought that he didn't want to be seen as a victim.

I think he had lots of different fans who voted for different reasons.

Some thought he was a great game player
Some thought he was hilarious
Some liked the relationship with Faye
Some thought he had a misleading edit
Some thought the show were against him and were purely voting against the show and its bias.

It was a combination for lots of people and some liked him for particular reasons and strongly disagreed with others. Aaron fans weren't an Army with one mind, there was much disparity about the reasons for liking and much disagreement about his motives as well.

I'm sure if we gave these reasons to any BB winner they'd all prefer to win based on the first two criteria rather than the last two, so it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't want to do the whole woe is me thing on here. That doesn't mean he doesn't think his edit was unfair at all. It just means he may not want to discuss it.

I personally think there is more than enough evidence looking at the twitcams, his Q&A and his feelings about BB, having been a huge fan prior, to show that he really wasn't happy with how he was portrayed. That he doesn't crow about it doesn't mean it's not true. In fact it's quite admirable that he doesn't harp on about it,

Well what were you saying then? That's certainly what it sounds like.


Oh excuse me for going to such "dubious lengths". I won't bother putting "such effort" in in future if things seem so obvious to you.


Apologies for using that example, I'll only use examples you're not familiar with from now on.


Harry beat Jay the week Anton went, he topped the vote in the four way eviction. The following week he was evicted in a four way eviction.


Well it did to me so there you go.

yes, that may be so. I don't know if it had any connection with Tom and Alex falling out with Jay on that ghastly sounding trip from Newcastle to Cornwall, but certainly the chances of a friendly five year reunion of the BB12 housemates looks slim. (I'm not saying it would have happened anyway, or that the chances for BB13 would be any greater.)


Yes, I always think it was a shame we had so very few Jay or Alex fans on here; it gave the forum a peculiar (and rather unpleasant) atmosphere, where the only standpoints seemed to be pro or anti-Aaron, with all the pros being violently anti Jay and Alex and none of the anti's seeming pro anyone. It means, for example, that it has become taken as read by most people that Aaron was nicer than we saw and Jay nastier, because there was no one to do the equivalent monitoring process that Aaron's fans did, on behalf of Jay. I stumbled across the long-forgotten cut and splice stunt without even looking for it, and wonder how many similar editing stunts they pulled to make him look worse than he was. No way of telling now, but it would be interesting to know. And it is wildly unlikely that Jay will come on here and answer questions; he is barely literate, loses his temper in a flash, and would be utterly savaged.

(I had forgotten btw how good natured the thread where Aaron answered questions was; it was well over 300 posts in before it deteriorated into bickering, so we had pages and pages of everyone being polite to him.)

How on earth is that "what it sounds like"?

I said "Back when we had 24/7 live coverage, and so knew more about how favourable or not the edit was, ..." which does not say or imply that there can't be a favourable edit when there's a live feed.


Thanks. Please don't.


That wasn't the point.


I already addressed that.


It was more a "team Aaron" action when Jem and Harry did so well in week 6.

Don't know and don't care, these two no marks were forgotten about once they left the house.

I'm finding it hard to remember what happened with other winners, but I remember thinking at the time that Rachel hadn't been treated in the way I'd expect for a winner, and I wondered whether perhaps they'd been thinking she wouldn't win and hadn't properly prepared for the possibility that she would.

Aaron had a bad reception from the crowd with jeers and boos (though also some cheers), but I don't think I paid much attention to his interview with Brian or to the following BOTS.


I think people should have had enough of Davina after she told Lesley Sanderson she'd been a "brilliant" housemate.

But I don't think she "really had it in for Rachel". What do you think showed that?

BTW, I was surprised and disappointed when Emma told Luke M that she's wanted him to win, and I wonder whether there's a "culture" among the people who make she show of preferring "big characters" even if they're sly and unpleasant.

I said "Back when we had 24/7 live coverage, and so knew more about how favourable or not the edit was, ..." which does not say or imply that there can't be a favourable edit when there's a live feed.

You also said I don't think any of the winners were so different live that "extremely favourable edit" seems like the right description. That's why I went to such "dubious lengths" to point out that it is possible to have an extremely favourable edit regardless of a live feed. Do you see how that's "what is sounds like" now



You asked a question and I answered it.


Yes. And it was a team Jay action when he beat Harry and Faye the following week. So?

I'm glad they're still together. One of the highlights of BB for me was the way the Maisy/Faye/Aaron thing was sorted out.

I think it's the first time in reality TV where I've seen all people involved acting like mature adults, instead of turning on the 'other woman'.

Which also does not say or imply that there can't be a favourable edit when there's a live feed.

(Note also that it was about the winners and not random other housemates.)


What you said in the posts was that it showed 'even the live feed can manage to hide things from viewers and be "edited" in a certain way' and 'things can even be covered up on the live feed'.

I don't agree with you about the bb5 edit, but as I said, I am familiar with what Victor has posted, I think his points were discussed well enough at the time(s), and I hope we don't have to go into it all again.

If your point is that it is possible to have an extremely favourable edit regardless of a live feed, however, then I agree and have not said anything contrary to that.


No.


Ok.


I've already explained what I think happened, and you haven't said anything that calls for any change in what I said.

The worst winner ever imo he spent all day saying he was wanting to leave or crying.

She said in an interview that Luke and Bex had been her favourites that year, even though Luke was monotonously horrible about Rachel. (She didn't say the second half, obviously; what she actually said was something like, "I love a BB romance, and don't even mind if it isn't real.") And the year afterwards, when she was geeing up the crowd and the viewers on an eviction night, she shouted, "Come on! Do we want another boring winner like last year?" - which I thought was massively disrespectful and out of order.

(That wasn't her worst incident of that year imo. Mo was really star struck by her and kept saying "I can't believe I am actually going to meet Davina!" - which she rewarded by saying his name and making a 'stick-two-fingers-down-your-throat-and-vomit' gesture. )



Yes, they handled it well, especially Maisy, who was very young, and ended up looking a bit jilted. I thought Amy handled the boorish behaviour of Liam very well in BB8. You almost never hear anyone mention her favourably, but she seemed a nice girl to me.

See below. BTW, I hadn't noticed last night, but the edit in question is in a BOTS clip and not the highlights. There have certainly been some dubious edits in BOTS clips, and it's useful to know that it goes back as far as bb12. They have almost inverted what people used to assume, that the online and BOTS clips were more reliable than the highlights and so could be used to detect questionable edits in the HLs.


Heaven didn't seem to feel all that strongly, but in any case the point was that we can know about things that haven't been shown at all, which you now seem to agree with.


It might be interesting to work out when the "dismiss as speculation" meme started to take hold.

Anyway, there will always be an element of speculation, since we're not mind-readers, and since credible inside sources are rare, but I don't think the two things you listed -- obviously special treatment during the show, and actually using the HM after -- have quite the status you're giving them. I'd say that those things can happen even if the producers don't care whether the HM wins, and that the producers can care whether a HM wins even without those things happening. So I don't think they're in a different "actual evidence" category than everything else.

Indeed, I'm inclined to say the producers always care, at least a bit, who wins, because it can affect have people feel about the show and also what they say and whether it's things that might attract new viewers or not.

About bb14, you said you "genuinely don't think they cared who won, other than that they must have had their own personal preferences" but you also said you "have always thought - and this is supposition - that they didn't want Sam to win." Not wanting Sam to win is caring who won. The caring doesn't have to mean they have a 'chosen one'; it can just be a desire some someone not to win or a preference for certain housemates over others.


Wasn't the edit of the "incident between Aaron and Faye that was misleadingly edited to look as if they had had a longer falling out than they had" in the highlights? I think that's considerably more serious than a misleading BOTS clip.

Also, looking at the thread, the argument that it was two separate events put together does not seem very strong; and what seems to be the most relevant post (which I'll quote below) doesn't even seem to be saying it was two completely different incidents spliced together.


"Discussed" doesn't have to go as far as "bringing the psych on", but jokes and gags aren't what "discussed" would normally bring to mind, and jokes and gags fit what I said: "they acted like it hadn't happened, then tried to make light of it once it had been credibly confirmed by Maisy."

Anyway, here's the post from the "Ewwwww Jay and Louise at the end of BOTS!!" thread:


Emphasis added.

The suggestion (and note the "I think") seems to be that the edit rearranged things that happened while they were in bed, rather than splicing together two completely separate things. Which would, of course, still be sly and misleading.

However, it's hard to judge this now, without even being able to see the relevant clip. The final post in the thread questions the editing theory and posts two links, neither of which now works.

I was also impressed that Maisy and Faye remained friendly in the house, and I was a bit annoyed that BB showed only glimpses of them having fun together.


I think the list of deplorable attitudes from Davina was quite long by the end. And at least from bb6 on, I felt she usually presented as if only some of the audience existed. It may have been the majority of the audience, most of the time, I don't know; but significant numbers had other views, and sometimes that number was quite large. Her saying "Do we want another boring winner like last year?" is an example.

But I don't think that, or the other things you mention, amount to Davina having it in for Rachel.


I think Amy generally gets favourable mentions, when she is mentioned (which isn't all that often).

I didn't say anything about that in my earlier reply, because there were too many other issues, but I think it's an interesting point. I don't think it's the whole story, though. There are other reasons why people tend to think those they like best are getting the worst edit, and often there's an over-interpretation of what's shown and what's left out.

Once someone likes a HM, they often watch that HM differently and care about more and different things. It's almost inevitable that the edit won't reflect that POV.

I think few, if any, HMs get quite the edit that those who strongly like or dislike them think they deserve.

I did read on twitter from Louise that they were getting divorced, I haven't seen any pics of them together recently and Jay isn't wearing his wedding ring anymore and neither is Louise. But Faye and Aaron are still together.

[quote=Veri;70606803]Which also does not say or imply that there can't be a favourable edit when there's a live feed.
/QUOTE]

Ok well in future if I say the sky is blue and you say you wouldn't describe it as blue, I'll know not to bother explaining why the sky is blue, because you'll only question how on earth I could possibly think you were implying otherwise.

Never mind them ...... are Dexter & Charlie still pretending to be together? That's what I want to know

Does anyone know if they're still together?