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Neil just as culpable in taking Jason down. |
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#1 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,156
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Neil just as culpable in taking Jason down.
Both he and Luisa were responsible in bringing Jason down.
![]() He shouldn't of let it happen equally the should have given him more of a chance. |
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#2 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 13,451
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Jason took himself down really.
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#3 |
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Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,259
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Quote:
Jason took himself down really.
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#4 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 170
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He did, but you cannot control people who try to undermine you, they'll just do it. He should have stayed STRONG. I'll miss Jason.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 33
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What was Neil supposed to do ? At the end of the first day Jason and Luisa returned to the house having failed to complete the website. Neil asked why that was, he then asked if they expected that the other team would have completed the first half of the task in the time available. Like the rest of his team, he was staring at a loss based on the failure to finish things they were expected to do.
Neil asked quite reasonably .."if we carry on like this, are we likely to finish the tasks we need to complete tomorrow ?? " There is no value in pretending things are ok and fine when they are not. Neil (and Luisa) asked the right questions at the end of Day 1. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 174
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Let's be honest, Jason took himself down. He was weak.
Nevertheless, that website designer was f**king useless!!!!! It took an hour and half for that! To design something that looked straight out of 1997. I could do better and that's not what I do for a living. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 27,438
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This is ridiculous. Neil was doing what any concerned member of the team would have done. Notice that Francesca also echoed Neil's comments, but somehow that hasn't been picked up by the OP.
Ultimately it was Luisa who brought the team to that predicament, I found that it was a deliberate attempt by Luisa to undermine Jason who she saw as a weak candidate, so she could upstage him and save the day, but it backfired. |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,100
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Neil & Fran should have backed Jason and got behind him, maybe suggest that Neil & Luisa swap so that he could help Jason a bit. Its called being a team player.
What are they going to do in business, sometimes you may not agree with decisions but you get behind it and do your best, not do your best to undermine your manager because if you do you could be the one out the door. |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,230
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Quote:
He did, but you cannot control people who try to undermine you, they'll just do it. He should have stayed STRONG. I'll miss Jason.
But Jason could have tried harder. When it was obvious what Luisa was doing, he should have isolated her. Given her a single task that she alone would perform. That way she can't undermine him without undermining herself. During meetings, if she is being too negative and not constructive, he should have called her on it. And if she continued being negative and not constructive, he could have asked her to wait outside while the other three continue planning. That would have reduced her influence and given him a better basis to defend himself in the boardroom. But especially when there are small teams, then any team leader can be done in. By the team simply criticising anything they say no matter whether the criticism is reasonable or not. |
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#10 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 162
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Quote:
Let's be honest, Jason took himself down. He was weak.
Nevertheless, that website designer was f**king useless!!!!! It took an hour and half for that! To design something that looked straight out of 1997. I could do better and that's not what I do for a living. TBH if I was the web-designer and I had one loud-mouth bitch and one wet blanket turn-up at 6pm asking for mock-ups I probably would turn them down. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
Luisa led the undermining of Jason, but the rest of the team were knowingly complicit. If an entire team undermines the leader, then there is no simple defence against it.
When the team debriefed at the end of the day it became clear how dysfunctional Jason/Luisa had been. Neil and Francesca were right to raise their concerns and try to understand (a) what went wrong and (b) what they could do to rescue it. We saw Neil summarise the decision to switch PMs at the end, but it was Luisa who pushed it, Jason agreed to it and clearly the four of them had taken the time to talk through the implications of it. It's not like Neil made the decision himself, as some posters have claimed - he clearly didn't have the authority to do that. Jason was weak but there was a certain nobility in him stepping down knowing that continuing would jeopardise any chance of winning the task. Most PMs would have carried on regardless and just become more dictatorial - we have seen that happen many times in the past. I genuinely think he did it as much for the good of the team as because he'd had enough. Luisa probably did the right thing in taking over, but the way she forced Jason into that position wasn't particularly edifying. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 923
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I think the general behaviour of all the contestants towards Jason was pretty off; he was different to them, so many of them just gave him the cold shoulder, plus he maintained his politeness and good manners throughout which they picked up as a weakness, and when the chance presented itself the team he was leading, turned on him.
I think whichever team he was leading would've singled him out as scapegoat, no matter how he performed because his quiet demeanour makes him seem like easy prey. Neil clearly disliked Jason but Luisa behaved appallingly to him and I think he knew he was on a loser with the pair of them - I thnk he was quite hurt actually, but that he felt if he remained as PM against such hostility the team would definitely have lost, and he knew he'd be gone if they did, whether he was PM or not. Ultimately I think he made the wrong choice - had he stayed put there was a very slim chance Luisa may have been fired instead of him. I think it's a shame he's gone though, because he was the only contestant that I found remotely likeable. |
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#13 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
I think the general behaviour of all the contestants towards Jason was pretty off; he was different to them, so many of them just gave him the cold shoulder, plus he maintained his politeness and good manners throughout which they picked up as a weakness, and when the chance presented itself the team he was leading, turned on him.
I think whichever team he was leading would've singled him out as scapegoat, no matter how he performed because his quiet demeanour makes him seem like easy prey. Neil clearly disliked Jason but Luisa behaved appallingly to him and I think he knew he was on a loser with the pair of them - I thnk he was quite hurt actually, but that he felt if he remained as PM against such hostility the team would definitely have lost, and he knew he'd be gone if they did, whether he was PM or not. Ultimately I think he made the wrong choice - had he stayed put there was a very slim chance Luisa may have been fired instead of him. I think it's a shame he's gone though, because he was the only contestant that I found remotely likeable. We saw this most clearly last night in the clash of styles between Luisa and Jason. Luisa is a classic extrovert - she throws out top-of-mind ideas, challenges others to prove her wrong and wants to move on quickly. Jason is a classic introvert - he likes to consider and produce a fully-formed idea which is more thought through. To Luisa, Jason appeared to be just dithering (to be fair, he was), but showed no appreciation for his different thinking style. The worst thing you can do to an introvert is to put them on the spot. While it was fine for her to point out the time pressure, what she should have done is walk away for 5 minutes to let him compose his thoughts and then move on constructively. Instead she kept nagging him to make a decision - which sent him into 'analysis paralysis'. Luisa's 'problem' is that she has very poor team skills and doesn't appreciate that there is more than one way to solve a problem. Because she thinks off the cuff and is so convinced she is always right, she automatically dismisses others like Jason who like more time to think. Whereas if she stopped for a minute and gave Jason a chance, he might have come up with ideas which were more cohesive because he had thought them through from start to finish. Having said that, taking 45 minutes to decide on website colours was foolish. I thought Neil was better towards Jason. He never really understood him, but he did realise he was different to the others and he did give Jason a fair chance in the caravan task. I doubt Luisa would have done the same. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 696
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I though Neil was almost heroic when standing up for Jason.
'You can't change a project manager' 'Am I actually hearing this?' |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 28,296
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It was a coup not an abdication!
Who does that Neil think he is deciding to tell the PM that he is no longer PM?! Louisa and most of them are all about saving themselves during the tasks and not playing as a team, though they make out as it was a team effort if they win with their annoying group "hugs"!
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#16 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
It was a coup not an abdication!
Who does that Neil think he is deciding to tell the PM that he is no longer PM?! Louisa and most of them are all about saving themselves during the tasks and not playing as a team, though they make out as it was a team effort if they win with their annoying group "hugs"! ![]() While Luisa did try to engineer a coup, Jason was a willing participant in stepping down. He said this in the team meeting. He said it in the boardroom too. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,654
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I think the person who primarily created the coup itself, as an event, was Jason, to be honest. He's the first person to actually suggest that he shouldn't be PM, he's the one who tells Luisa that he wants her to do everything moving forwards, and by the time they get back to the house he's actively advocating Luisa being PM instead of him.
It's obviously in response to Luisa being abrasive and obnoxious to him (and also a little bit I think him not liking the concept he's been stuck with by the market research), and she runs with it, but he seemed actively keen to jump out the role. If anything, to me, Neil came across like he was actually trying to persuade him to stay IN as PM. He's the one who says they can't change PM at this stage (Francesca echoes him, but has been persuaded by Jason and Luisa by the end of the discussion) and he brings up later how Luisa undermined Jason, in the boardroom. |
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#18 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,226
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Quote:
Luisa led the undermining of Jason, but the rest of the team were knowingly complicit. If an entire team undermines the leader, then there is no simple defence against it.
But Jason could have tried harder. When it was obvious what Luisa was doing, he should have isolated her. Given her a single task that she alone would perform. That way she can't undermine him without undermining herself. During meetings, if she is being too negative and not constructive, he should have called her on it. And if she continued being negative and not constructive, he could have asked her to wait outside while the other three continue planning. That would have reduced her influence and given him a better basis to defend himself in the boardroom. But especially when there are small teams, then any team leader can be done in. By the team simply criticising anything they say no matter whether the criticism is reasonable or not. All we saw was Jason continually being indecisive and trying new colours, for a small part of, what should have been, a much bigger design. He did it in a destructive way, that ruined the satisfactory solution they had arrived at, in favour of repeated options that didn't work , and it took time to restore anything viable each time he meddled. She told him the one thing that mattered - which was that he didn't have any more time and couldn't do that. She then had to tell him again and again, as he, straight away, tried another irrelevant change . We even saw how stupid his ideas were as he suggested black and white and green as appropriate options to try out. There was nothing else she could do - other than do nothing, or take over there and then, and send him to the canteen out of the way.She didn't have the power to do the second, and Lord Sugar would have blamed her for not doing the former. Thats all we saw. We don't know why they ended up producing so little overall. The only inference available is that Jason had been like this throughout. We can't assume that Luisa was responsible for doing something we didn't see earlier on, just because people don't like her and Jason was a popular contestant. We either don't know, or we follow the edit and think Jason's behaviour was constant. There's also an enormous mystery why they turned up 2 hrs late late for the website design. We have no idea why that was. We have no idea whether Jason, the driver, the traffic or the website people were to blame. All we saw was that Jason was panicking and acting in a way that was totally inappropriate for the severe shortage of time that resulted. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 11,932
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Quote:
All we saw was Jason continually being indecisive and trying new colours, for a small part of, what should have been, a much bigger design.
It doesn't take a genius to see that they were damaging each other's chance to perform well in this task. I mean, he pissed her off for not following her script. She pissed him off for not following his own script. Both weren't willing to compromise. Something had to give. Logically, Luisa should back down and do what she can to make PM Jason's vision come alive, regardless of her personal preferences. She didn't. Jason had a responsibility to make her see that, but he didn't. Instead, his solution was to step down while her solution was to take over. Bad idea. Bad decision. Bad move. Luisa spent so much time and energy on nagging when she could use the time to find out why Jason wasn't happy with a colour scheme. And work together to find the right scheme. A pair as a team would work much faster and more effectively. Luisa decided that nagging at Jason was the best approach. So stupid. She was so unproductive in this task - which she wrote off as a failure the moment Jason chose the over-50s concept - that I found her incredibly frustrating. She wasn't thinking of the project, let alone finding a way to present it in the best light. She'd allowed her personal preferences to cloud her judgement. Bad move, pal. Jason, on the other hand, didn't have faith in his instincts enough to stand against the likes of Luisa and Neil. Not only that, he --evidently since the first episode--saw himself as a Quixotic knight in search for a way to prove that high morals and ethics can work as a code practice in the 21st-century business world. But Jason, The Apprentice isn't the right place to showcase that vision. It's a competition where kittens get stomped on without a second thought. He deserved to be fired, really. But yeah, both were equally at fault in this episode. Now that Jason's gone, Luisa really has to start learning the basic principles of team work, and recognising that offering unconditional support in spite of her reservations is a form of strong leadership. I mean, business is largely a collaborative process and she has to realise that her aggressive-lone-ranger approach isn't working in that respect. |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 34,226
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Luisa should have worked with him, but she chose to nag at him non-stop instead. "Get on with it! You got to make a decision now! You have to make a decision. Make a decision!" How can anyone work with that? I don't think even Lord Sugar would put up with it if she did it to him. I wouldn't. I would have kicked her out of the room. There is no way I'd let anyone pull faces at me and whine non-stop while I try to work.
It doesn't take a genius to see that they were damaging each other's chance to perform well in this task. I mean, he pissed her off for not following her script. She pissed him off for not following his own script. Both weren't willing to compromise. Something had to give. Logically, Luisa should back down and do what she can to make PM Jason's vision come alive, regardless of her personal preferences. She didn't. Jason had a responsibility to make her see that, but he didn't. Instead, his solution was to step down while her solution was to take over. Bad idea. Bad decision. Bad move. Luisa spent so much time and energy on nagging when she could use the time to find out why Jason wasn't happy with a colour scheme. And work together to find the right scheme. A pair as a team would work much faster and more effectively. Luisa decided that nagging at Jason was the best approach. So stupid. She was so unproductive in this task - which she wrote off as a failure the moment Jason chose the over-50s concept - that I found her incredibly frustrating. She wasn't thinking of the project, let alone finding a way to present it in the best light. She'd allowed her personal preferences to cloud her judgement. Bad move, pal. Jason, on the other hand, didn't have faith in his instincts enough to stand against the likes of Luisa and Neil. Not only that, he --evidently since the first episode--saw himself as a Quixotic knight in search for a way to prove that high morals and ethics can work as a code practice in the 21st-century business world. But Jason, The Apprentice isn't the right place to showcase that vision. It's a competition where kittens get stomped on without a second thought. He deserved to be fired, really. But yeah, both were equally at fault in this episode. Now that Jason's gone, Luisa really has to start learning the basic principles of team work, and recognising that offering unconditional support in spite of her reservations is a form of strong leadership. I mean, business is largely a collaborative process and she has to realise that her aggressive-lone-ranger approach isn't working in that respect. Thats what we see. Add that he's panicking and realising he's failed, and she's getting fed up. We have no idea whats been going on before that. We don't know why they didn't get far, or who was to blame. The only clue we have is that all we are shown is the final stages. Either thats meant to tell us that Jason has been behaving like that from the start, or something else was going on and we have no idea who was to blame. We also don't know why they turned up 2 hours late, who was to blame , or how much time that left them. The implicit suggestion is though that there was too little rime to do anything but make a series of short, sharp decisions - and we saw enough to realise that Jason was totally unable to do that. I don't htink we can read much into Luisa's ability from how she treats Jason. In the real world she, and I, wouldn't hire, or keep, Jason for any job that required quick judgement or decision making. In the Apprentice world, shes far from the only one who has had the same problems with Jason, and the males have reacted, in the male way that wasn't open to her, and been far more abrupt and rude to him, without any outcry.. |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,443
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I would hire Jason, he may not be quick and snappy, but he is also not likely to produce a terminally bad atmosphere in the team and cause constant rows and bickering. He is a team player who will give every decision careful consideration, and attempt to work well with his team mates to produce something of quality. He is also clever, highly intelligent, and doesn't try every trick in the book to draw attention to himself, I can do without attention seekers, they wreck office life.
Luisa is going to cost anyone who hires her a lot in lost productivity because of rows and sulking if she can't get her way. There will also probably be a lot of mistakes because of rudeness, aggression and instant decisions that haven't been thought through properly. |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,420
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I have a member of staff who is very similar to Jason. He is quiet, unfailingly polite and gets on with his work. He may not be able to think outside the box easily, but he gets the job done and, at times, is more productive than the other team members. I'd take Jason over Luisa any day, as her style is disruptive and counter-productive.
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,659
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If Jason had stayed in charge then it may well have been Luisa who got fired - he cost himself the chance by giving up halfway through the task rather than just telling them to put up or shut up.
Louisa offered nothing but withering bitchiness on the first day, then didn't really do much on the second day. The only reason the second day went smoothly was because the others just got on with what they were going to do anyway. Jason was too nice and too passive for this process, but none of his team come out of it smelling of anything other than the stuff that falls out of a cow's arse. If this were a real process rather than dumbed down entertainment, then all four of them would probably have been canned. |
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#24 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 11,878
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Quote:
Luisa led the undermining of Jason, but the rest of the team were knowingly complicit. If an entire team undermines the leader, then there is no simple defence against it.
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But especially when there are small teams, then any team leader can be done in. By the team simply criticising anything they say no matter whether the criticism is reasonable or not.
We've never seen a team leader abdicate before, and part of the reason for that is most of them know what a strange thing it is to do. In a business, the boss would never quit his position, hand over the company to an employee, and become an employee himself. It was bizarre. And no, I don't think the team members could have forced it on him. They could have done what you say, but ultimately they are stuck with their leader for the task - unless the leader steps down.Quote:
Jason was weak but there was a certain nobility in him stepping down knowing that continuing would jeopardise any chance of winning the task.
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#25 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,587
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I'm just going to point out that in Series 7, Helen asked Melody if she could take over, and Melody said no. Melody is just stronger than Jason; if she could say no, then so could Jason.
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