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The market research is a bad trap


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Old 19-06-2013, 21:48
DamienS
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Listen to it, you're not using your initiative

Don't listen to it, you're an idiot for not going with the advice

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Old 19-06-2013, 22:20
Purple.
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That what I was thinking as well.
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Old 19-06-2013, 22:34
j4Rose
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I agree. Alan has criticised people for ignoring it in the past.
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Old 19-06-2013, 22:36
Addisonian
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Agree. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
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Old 19-06-2013, 22:42
Dan-Bevis
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Agree. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Indeed.

Though, I do like how every series a team always stereotypes the Over-50s market [for whatever] in exactly the same fashion. Is it a running gag, or have none of them watched the show before applying?
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Old 19-06-2013, 23:03
missfrankiecat
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The point is they don't actually have time or resources to do sensible market research. A few people in a pub does not a focus group make! So it's nearly always a complete red herring.
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Old 20-06-2013, 00:12
KHPlus
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The point is they don't actually have time or resources to do sensible market research. A few people in a pub does not a focus group make! So it's nearly always a complete red herring.
Agreed. The focus groups is too small a sample size.

Basically, if you lose and hadn't listen to the focus group, you ignored your target consumers. If you lose and did listen to the focus group, you should've gone with your instincts.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:25
Philip Wales
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I think the down fall is, as we have often seen when people aren't fully behind the idea, they just ask a straight forward question "do you like such and such" answer no and they can then tell the PM they're idea is crap. They should engage more, and find out why the people don't like "such and such" and then try to explain why they're idea might work.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:27
General Lunacy
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Sugar is very inconsistent about what's a mistake and what isn't.

As people here seem to have noted, losing is the only real mistake.
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Old 20-06-2013, 12:53
slouchingthatch
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I think the down fall is, as we have often seen when people aren't fully behind the idea, they just ask a straight forward question "do you like such and such" answer no and they can then tell the PM they're idea is crap. They should engage more, and find out why the people don't like "such and such" and then try to explain why they're idea might work.
It should go further than that. As any researcher will tell you, the way to open a focus group is with a series of non-threatening, open and quite generic questions to get a sense for people's general preferences. This gives you a baseline of how people generally feel about the market. Only then, once they're nicely warmed up (and you have some useful insghts) do you show them the concept and explore their feedback on that.

The worst thing you can do is what most teams seem to do, which is to jump straight to "Do you like our idea (which personally I disagree with but it's what the PM wants us to do, hint, hint)?" Because all you get then is a surface reaction, usually based on the first one or two people to speak.
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Old 20-06-2013, 13:19
Shrike
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Sugar is very inconsistent about what's a mistake and what isn't.

As people here seem to have noted, losing is the only real mistake.
I think his point was that there are times you should ignore the focus group and times when you shouldn't - its knowing when thats the problem
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Old 20-06-2013, 13:23
General Lunacy
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I think his point was that there are times you should ignore the focus group and times when you shouldn't - its knowing when thats the problem
Fair point, i'd agree with him if that was the idea - he should be careful to avoid absolute terms (perhaps he hasn't...), because that's where the (apparent) contradictions lie.
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Old 20-06-2013, 13:26
george.millman
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The worst thing you can do is what most teams seem to do, which is to jump straight to "Do you like our idea (which personally I disagree with but it's what the PM wants us to do, hint, hint)?" Because all you get then is a surface reaction, usually based on the first one or two people to speak.
I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. The only thing I would say is that it's better to do that with a few ideas:

'Do you like [idea a]? Okay and what do you think of [idea b]? Okay, so if you had a choice, which one of these would you buy?' sort of thing.
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Old 20-06-2013, 13:42
slouchingthatch
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I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. The only thing I would say is that it's better to do that with a few ideas:

'Do you like [idea a]? Okay and what do you think of [idea b]? Okay, so if you had a choice, which one of these would you buy?' sort of thing.
Even in situations where you're asking focus groups to choose between options, though, you're trying to assess what they really think. If you ask a group to make an immediate judgement, that's exactly what they'll do. They will say which they prefer, but they won't necessarily tell you that they don't really like either, and it doesn't give them the opportunity to give you the insight that tells you that there is an even better option which hasn't been considered.

As with all qualitative (non-numerical) research, the aim should always be to keep your mind open for as long as possible. If you limit the field of play immediately, that's all you will ever get a response on.
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Old 20-06-2013, 16:55
george.millman
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Even in situations where you're asking focus groups to choose between options, though, you're trying to assess what they really think. If you ask a group to make an immediate judgement, that's exactly what they'll do. They will say which they prefer, but they won't necessarily tell you that they don't really like either, and it doesn't give them the opportunity to give you the insight that tells you that there is an even better option which hasn't been considered.

As with all qualitative (non-numerical) research, the aim should always be to keep your mind open for as long as possible. If you limit the field of play immediately, that's all you will ever get a response on.
I think it's fine to suggest ideas that you've already had, so long as you're open to them hating the idea. Like in Young Apprentice Series 2, Episode 5 for example. Zara's team had a very strong idea that they'd already planned out on storyboards; then they asked the focus groups, and the focus group hated the idea, so they had to completely flip their idea at the last minute. Which a lot of people probably wouldn't have done, but it was the right call to make.
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Old 20-06-2013, 19:18
slouchingthatch
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I think it's fine to suggest ideas that you've already had, so long as you're open to them hating the idea. Like in Young Apprentice Series 2, Episode 5 for example. Zara's team had a very strong idea that they'd already planned out on storyboards; then they asked the focus groups, and the focus group hated the idea, so they had to completely flip their idea at the last minute. Which a lot of people probably wouldn't have done, but it was the right call to make.
It's fine to talk about your concept, just don't open with it. It's a bit like asking someone to run a 100m sprint before they've warmed up properly. Every professionally-run focus group I've attended (at least a dozen) has opened the same way. Establish the baseline. Set nervous participants ar ease. Then ask them the big question. Softly, softly, catchy monkey, as it were.
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Old 21-06-2013, 09:02
Philip Wales
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It's fine to talk about your concept, just don't open with it. It's a bit like asking someone to run a 100m sprint before they've warmed up properly. Every professionally-run focus group I've attended (at least a dozen) has opened the same way. Establish the baseline. Set nervous participants ar ease. Then ask them the big question. Softly, softly, catchy monkey, as it were.
Yep, never ask a question that can be answered Yes or No
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Old 21-06-2013, 09:27
slouchingthatch
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Yep, never ask a question that can be answered Yes or No
Absolutely. There's a huge difference between a closed question - "Do you like our idea?" and an open one - "Tell me what you think about this ..." The first forces you to lead the witness when they respond "yes" or "no", whereas the second allows the witness to lead you, e.g. "Oh, so you think the home page is poorly laid out. What could we do to improve it?" It's a subtle but important difference.
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Old 21-06-2013, 12:53
Mykey38
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It did seem as though N and F were leading the focus group a bit rather than trying to coax out their real opinions. Thing is Jason wouldnt have a clue as he wasnt there.
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Old 21-06-2013, 13:54
Philip Wales
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It did seem as though N and F were leading the focus group a bit rather than trying to coax out their real opinions. Thing is Jason wouldnt have a clue as he wasnt there.
Thats why I reckon Jason would of been better at the focus group, he admits he's no good at design etc, and that part of the process wasn't really called into question anyway.
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Old 21-06-2013, 15:18
thenetworkbabe
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Even in situations where you're asking focus groups to choose between options, though, you're trying to assess what they really think. If you ask a group to make an immediate judgement, that's exactly what they'll do. They will say which they prefer, but they won't necessarily tell you that they don't really like either, and it doesn't give them the opportunity to give you the insight that tells you that there is an even better option which hasn't been considered.

As with all qualitative (non-numerical) research, the aim should always be to keep your mind open for as long as possible. If you limit the field of play immediately, that's all you will ever get a response on.
Their problem was made worse by the fact that they hadn't got a definition of their target market. If you want over 50s you need a bigger number of people from throughout the age range . If you want youthful fifties you have to actually talk to people who are youthful fifties.

They didn't define, so couldn't identify who they should be talking to. Defining the market though requires you understand your market in the first place - and they didn't. Because they didn't, it also becomes impossible to say these people don't represent either the age group in general, or the market we are after. You end up inevitably following what the people tell you, because you have no reason to question if they are the wrong people. You then inevitably end up with a bland offering that meets their needs, and reflects the simple view you have taken of "old people" and what they want.

Thats pretty likely to go wrong anyway when you have too few people, and you lack the understanding that someone who does this professionally will have. The professional will come with lists of sub categories of old folk, they will know which they are aiming at, they will notice if they have the wrong people in their focus group, and they will be trained how to ask the questions.

There's also the show artificiality factor . Did they pick their own people to use as market research or did some producer organise a few willing, generic, old folk off the street? Did they pick carelessly, or intend to pick the wrong ones? Like the reason why Jason turned up two hours late to build his website, we just don't know.

Basically the wise decision was what Luisa and Francesca, and the other team, said - don't pick a target audience that you know nothing about - pick one that you understand anyway. Lord Sugar blurred that with his usual assumption that he knows everything, and his failure to realise he was an over 50 and understood that market because he was part of it himself, but it was basically the right call. Everything that went wrong - besides Jason dithering, and arriving late, ruining the website - basically stems from venturing into an area where they knew too little even to ask the right questions.
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Old 21-06-2013, 17:01
spubbbba
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Basically the wise decision was what Luisa and Francesca, and the other team, said - don't pick a target audience that you know nothing about - pick one that you understand anyway. Lord Sugar blurred that with his usual assumption that he knows everything, and his failure to realise he was an over 50 and understood that market because he was part of it himself, but it was basically the right call. Everything that went wrong - besides Jason dithering, and arriving late, ruining the website - basically stems from venturing into an area where they knew too little even to ask the right questions.
But they did make an excellent point about that on You’re Fired, people over 50 aren’t all that different from those under 50. Plus it’s not like they don’t know plenty of people in that age range anyway, be it relatives, colleagues or neighbours etc.

If you can only market products to people like yourself, white, young professionals in their case then they are cutting off most of the market.
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Old 22-06-2013, 00:19
lea_uk
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I think the key is not going with everything that people say but take what you think will work best and go with it.
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