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Why on Earth did Lord Sugar say not to listen to the market research?


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Old 21-06-2013, 09:39
slouchingthatch
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He's not a sheer idiot! I appreciate that that's your opinion, but I totally disagree. And I don't think exams equate to intelligence. Too many people these days think that they do; I think that there are academic types and there are streetwise types, but there isn't a huge amount of difference in the intelligence, insightfulness and wisdom of either. It varies from person to person, regardless of exam results.
Jason being a case in point. Academically clearly very bright - you don't go to Oxford and go on to do a PhD if you're not - but utterly naive in the business world.

Some of the brightest people I know would make terrible businesspeople. Conversely, some of the best businesspeople I know left school at 16.
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Old 21-06-2013, 09:47
ivory tower
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His worth now stems form the huge property portfolio he's built up in London especially, rather than having his finger on the pulse of business today. He was obviously very astute to get where he has, but he's not someone I'd necessarily look to for advice on start-ups these days.

My comments about self-contradiction, come from the tasks over the years. One week it's "all about volume", and one week it's "all about quality" etc.

In reality, it's all about ratings and I doubt he has as much a say in it as people imagine, but that's another point entirely
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Old 21-06-2013, 10:05
george.millman
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His worth now stems form the huge property portfolio he's built up in London especially, rather than having his finger on the pulse of business today. He was obviously very astute to get where he has, but he's not someone I'd necessarily look to for advice on start-ups these days.

My comments about self-contradiction, come from the tasks over the years. One week it's "all about volume", and one week it's "all about quality" etc.

In reality, it's all about ratings and I doubt he has as much a say in it as people imagine, but that's another point entirely
Well, lots of the people on The Apprentice and especially Young Apprentice have said that his help has been invaluable in helping them get started. I think it's great that he helps people get started in business, the world needs more people like that.

Obviously different tasks rely on different things to pass. That's why they don't just have a similar task each week; they're designed to test the candidates skill set. So sometimes it will be about volume, sometimes about quality etc. It all depends on what the task is.

I don't think someone like Lord Sugar would do a programme like The Apprentice and be swayed by what the producers thought. I read somewhere that he donates his entire fee to Great Ormond Street Hospital, so he is essentially doing the show for free - what would be his incentive to do that if he wasn't genuinely trying to help people in business? Plus, ratings don't seem to matter to him. He has spoken out publicly about being furious with the BBC for cancelling Young Apprentice, even though that got lower viewing figures than the main show. If the producers control his thoughts on the show, why is he openly critical of them?
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Old 22-06-2013, 02:42
Cassy990
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I think half of the problem was that the market research actually wasn't conducted very well. Grabbing a group of pensioners in a pub (therefore not representative of the broad range of ages over 50), the questions were very direct 'do you like this?' There was no general build up to the more important questions, it didn't seem as if everyone in the focus group was contributing equally ect. I really could go on all day about the awful research that goes on in general and yes I'm aware they're under time constraints. The one thing that always sticks out to me is why don't they bring a dictaphone and record these focus groups as any researcher would when preparing a piece of academic research. Obviously not for the same reason but it would allow the PM and others in the group to know what questions were asked, what responses were given and crucially whether to follow the market research or disregard it because the questions/answers given aren't relevant for that they wanted to find out.
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Old 22-06-2013, 02:59
thenetworkbabe
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I think half of the problem was that the market research actually wasn't conducted very well. Grabbing a group of pensioners in a pub (therefore not representative of the broad range of ages over 50), the questions were very direct 'do you like this?' There was no general build up to the more important questions, it didn't seem as if everyone in the focus group was contributing equally ect. I really could go on all day about the awful research that goes on in general and yes I'm aware they're under time constraints. The one thing that always sticks out to me is why don't they bring a dictaphone and record these focus groups as any researcher would when preparing a piece of academic research. Obviously not for the same reason but it would allow the PM and others in the group to know what questions were asked, what responses were given and crucially whether to follow the market research or disregard it because the questions/answers given aren't relevant for that they wanted to find out.
I don't think they have time for that. They tend to end up in phone conversations that go " did they like a or B?" as both teams dash to do something else. Its not known either who picks the people they talk to, or what can be recorded or transmitted. Their problem was that they didn't know who they wanted to speak to (all people over 50, or people in their fifties, or better off active people either sde of 60?) If they had known that they wanted, a decent sample of lively fifty somethings who might be interested in dating services, would the producers have found enough of the right people? And if they had got answers from the right group of people, how on earth were they meant to know the market well enough to realise whether their cross sample was representative, and to be trusted?

The other team and the girls on Jason's team all avoided all of those unknows by arguing that the answer was to pick their own age group - where they aready had a survey group and knowledge, and knew what they would want, and people their age who had used similar services.
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Old 22-06-2013, 07:11
jojo01
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They did pick rather a 'grey' bunch of over 50s for the market research which is why I think they liked the Friendship & Flowers concept. Had they found a more diverse bunch of over 50s though, I think they may have had a hard time finding anything they could agree on (a newly over 50 is probably different in lifestyle terms than someone aged 65 for example).

Regardless, LAS did come across as a tool for telling them they were wrong for listening to market research having bleated on about the need to listen to focus groups in previous series.

I don't pretend to know about the lifestyles etc of those in the over 50 age group, but I am 45 and if I buy a blouson jacket in 5 years you have permission to shoot me!
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Old 22-06-2013, 11:35
george.millman
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Regardless, LAS did come across as a tool for telling them they were wrong for listening to market research having bleated on about the need to listen to focus groups in previous series.
I think he meant that as they didn't do it properly, they would probably be better off following their own gut instincts than the ideas of an unrepresentative group of people... but I agree, he didn't phrase that very well at all.
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Old 23-06-2013, 00:59
Cassy990
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I don't think they have time for that. They tend to end up in phone conversations that go " did they like a or B?" as both teams dash to do something else. Its not known either who picks the people they talk to, or what can be recorded or transmitted. Their problem was that they didn't know who they wanted to speak to (all people over 50, or people in their fifties, or better off active people either sde of 60?) If they had known that they wanted, a decent sample of lively fifty somethings who might be interested in dating services, would the producers have found enough of the right people? And if they had got answers from the right group of people, how on earth were they meant to know the market well enough to realise whether their cross sample was representative, and to be trusted?

The other team and the girls on Jason's team all avoided all of those unknows by arguing that the answer was to pick their own age group - where they aready had a survey group and knowledge, and knew what they would want, and people their age who had used similar services.
Either do market research properly or not at all which is perhaps something Lord Sugar should look at. It is pointless otherwise. There was nothing stopping them from walking up to people in the street, who looked over 50 as they walked to or from the pub and asking them also if they felt the focus group wasn't on the same page as them.
It is easy to say 'oh I don't know the market therefore I am not possibly capable of targeting the over 50s.' Surely they have people in their lives over 50, parents, aunts, uncles ect. I'm sure they wouldn't think of their parents being as dull and boring like they did of the over 50's on the show. It is a lazy attitude.
The market everyone else had identified is already crowded and if Jason's team had pulled off the over 50s concept they would've likely won for bringing online dating to a new market, lets face it the other team weren't much better.
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Old 23-06-2013, 01:40
DavetheScot
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Either do market research properly or not at all which is perhaps something Lord Sugar should look at. It is pointless otherwise. There was nothing stopping them from walking up to people in the street, who looked over 50 as they walked to or from the pub and asking them also if they felt the focus group wasn't on the same page as them.
It is easy to say 'oh I don't know the market therefore I am not possibly capable of targeting the over 50s.' Surely they have people in their lives over 50, parents, aunts, uncles ect. I'm sure they wouldn't think of their parents being as dull and boring like they did of the over 50's on the show. It is a lazy attitude.
The market everyone else had identified is already crowded and if Jason's team had pulled off the over 50s concept they would've likely won for bringing online dating to a new market, lets face it the other team weren't much better.
They'll have parents, but they'll never have had cause to question their parents about what they'd like in a dating website or advert!

I don't know what my parents would, if it comes to that.
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Old 23-06-2013, 01:47
Cassy990
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They'll have parents, but they'll never have had cause to question their parents about what they'd like in a dating website or advert!

I don't know what my parents would, if it comes to that.
But they'd know what their parent's personalities and interests were and that of their friends. I'd certainly never portray my parents as that dull and boring as they did in that advert. My point is there are always reference points in people's lives that they can bring and use to help them even if it is just in a small way to provide some context. The attitude of Jason's team was lazy. The girls just didn't want to target the over 50's and couldn't be bothered to attempt to make any sort of connection.
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Old 23-06-2013, 02:48
DavetheScot
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But they'd know what their parent's personalities and interests were and that of their friends. I'd certainly never portray my parents as that dull and boring as they did in that advert. My point is there are always reference points in people's lives that they can bring and use to help them even if it is just in a small way to provide some context. The attitude of Jason's team was lazy. The girls just didn't want to target the over 50's and couldn't be bothered to attempt to make any sort of connection.

Maybe the team did have dull and boring parents? Then their reference points could lead them astray. Or maybe their parents are vibrant and exciting but their market research made them feel their parents are atypical.

That's the trouble with your own reference points; they can be atypical and lead you astray.
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Old 23-06-2013, 03:35
thenetworkbabe
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Either do market research properly or not at all which is perhaps something Lord Sugar should look at. It is pointless otherwise. There was nothing stopping them from walking up to people in the street, who looked over 50 as they walked to or from the pub and asking them also if they felt the focus group wasn't on the same page as them.
It is easy to say 'oh I don't know the market therefore I am not possibly capable of targeting the over 50s.' Surely they have people in their lives over 50, parents, aunts, uncles ect. I'm sure they wouldn't think of their parents being as dull and boring like they did of the over 50's on the show. It is a lazy attitude.
The market everyone else had identified is already crowded and if Jason's team had pulled off the over 50s concept they would've likely won for bringing online dating to a new market, lets face it the other team weren't much better.
The other team seemed to have a pretty dubious advert in many ways. The message didn't fit the website, and that was as noted. The usp pushed in the advert though looked decidedly dodgy - Come dating with us and you will get appropriate dates - no wierdos. Would anyone get away with that legally? And if you wanted to stress that as a USP, wouldn't you need some new means of sifting the applicants to get it more right, and remove the possibility of a wierdo turning up? It might have been possible to beat that, crowded market or not, with something that was just coherent and realisic?
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Old 23-06-2013, 13:41
brangdon
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But that's not the team's fault, is it? The focus groups are set up for them in advance by the production team.
Usually when the focus groups are set up, they are in a proper, private venue. This time one team pulled people off the street, and the other found some in the corner of a pub. We've seen similar things before - eg with Tom's team in Paris in series 7. So I don't think it was set up.

Granted the sub-team did the research badly, I think that's separate to whether the leader was wrong to trust it. Unless he had reason to know they'd got it wrong, it's fair to trust they did their job competently. (Ideally you'd over-see them enough to confirm that, but that wasn't possible here.)

Hmm, well you'd say that, but up until now I've always understood his point of view, even if I don't personally agree with it. Even on this occasion, listening to some of the things that the people on here have said, I'm beginning to see his point.
I also believe he wants to understand what the candidate was thinking. So asking, "Why didn't you ignore the market research and go with your gut?" isn't saying the candidate should have done that. Even if he words it more strongly and says what the candidate did was wrong, it's still more about seeing how they react to criticism; whether they crumble, whether they fight back and try to justify themselves. He's not telling us how to do business, he's trying to evaluate his candidates.

So what would you say his opinion on following market research is? If you just asked him, in a conversation unrelated to the show, what do you reckon he would say?
When conducted well it can provide valuable insight, and a reality check. However, sometimes the public don't yet know they want what you can give them, so you shouldn't take it as gospel. Running a company by committee, without taking risks, is a recipe for mediocrity at best and failure at worst.
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