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EE - a problem with sexism |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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EE - a problem with sexism
I've just been talking about this elsewhere and felt compelled to write something here.
Soap has a history of strong female characters. In the beginning soaps were targeted at women so obviously they had to create women who other women could identify with or aspire to. Tanya's forthcoming exit has got me thinking about this and, in my opinion, this limp build-up to her decision to leave for Lauren's benefit really highlights a certain sexism on the part of the writing team... which is ironic and a bit sad, considering so many of them are women themselves. Obviously there are details being held back, but what we do know is that, like Peggy and Zainab before her, Tanya leaves because she feels a responsibility for the way her family has turned out. Now I have been critical in the recent past of Tanya's faults - her refusal to move on from Max, her questionable work ethic etc. She's no advert for feminism, but she has made a reasonable effort to be a good mum. Now she will suddenly decide it's best for Lauren if she (Tan) is out of the picture. Quite aside from the amazing lack of realism in this scenario (no loving mother would ever think "my daughter is an alcoholic, I must move half way across the country!"), I resent that once again we're expected to believe that the matriarch of the family - the supposedly "strong" woman - is the cause of every problem. Will we get to see Max experiencing a similar epiphany? Doubtful, although he's a much worse parent than Tanya. Of course I will eat a slice of humble pie if this does actually happen... But what we're seeing now is just a redressing of the exit stories of Peggy and Zainab. In a way Peggy's exit made sense - I mean, no mother would actually leave town the day after her crack addict son burnt a pub down, but their relationship was unhealthy and she rightly accepted that and felt the need to give Phil space. But by the time they recycled this story for Zainab's limp exit, I was starting to feel that EE's writers had a bizarre lack of respect for women. I mean, Masood basically told his wife she was the reason their marriage had fallen apart (even though they had survived the ordeal Yusef put them through, and even though they had been happy until only a couple of months previously). To make matters worse, Masood's sudden disliking of his wife's personality was sparked by the arrival of a young, pretty girl who fancied him, basically shitting on the shared history of two people who had been married thirty years. All of the things we had previously loved, and been expected to love, about Zainab - her bossiness, her need to control - were suddenly being used as reasons for the breakdown of their marriage. Not only did it not ring true, it stank of misogyny. I'm sick of strong women being reduced to wrecks who abandon their families in an instant because they believe, or they're told, that all the shit which has gone down is their fault. The men or the children never take any responsibility. I miss the genuinely strong women, now very few in number, limited maybe to Denise, Carol and Dot. Bleak times for EastEnders. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,740
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I've never thought about it like this before but you are right.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,726
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Well there's a few problems with all that . How do you know what Tanya does on her last day ? Tanya might take her children and live in a remote cave for all we know .
I fail to see why it is sexist as well . |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Team Moira is not a slag.
Posts: 25,900
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I was thinking about this the other day. They are ruining the woman on the show.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,357
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Some people see sexism in paper cups
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#6 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,053
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I wholeheartedly agree...
My most recent example is the fury and disgusting remarks that people on here made about Kat for being a 'slag' whilst treating the fact that jack has slept with every blonde Mitchell (I'll include Sharon in that for ease) as a hilarious joke. Female characters used to have strong personalities on EE, it was one of its Great strengths. Now they are either criminally underused (Denise, carol) or utterly defined by men |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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You haven't even seen the exit yet how do you know.
Also don't forget the show is run by a woman... Peggy, zainab and now tanya didn't abandon their families because of sexism they left because the actresses quit and the shows bosses wanted to leave the door open for their return. Simple. Also Let's not forget neither Peggy nor Zee left any dependents behind... Once your children have grown up you are allowed a life of your own |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
You haven't even seen the exit yet how do you know.
Also don't forget the show is run by a woman... Peggy, zainab and now tanya didn't abandon their families because of sexism they left because the actresses quit and the shows bosses wanted to leave the door open for their return. Simple. Also Let's not forget neither Peggy nor Zee left any dependents behind... Once your children have grown up you are allowed a life of your own Especially with zaibab - turning all the characteristics we have come to understand and even love about her, into her nagging her husband so he can justify wanting to be with a young girl - i agree it's lazy sexism. Poor masood with his nagging wife. We had spent a lot of time investing in the fact that she was so much more than that. And the fact that it is run by a woman is irrelevant, sexism isn't exclusive to the realms of men |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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I wholeheartedly agree...
My most recent example is the fury and disgusting remarks that people on here made about Kat for being a 'slag' whilst treating the fact that jack has slept with every blonde Mitchell (I'll include Sharon in that for ease) as a hilarious joke. Female characters used to have strong personalities on EE, it was one of its Great strengths. Now they are either criminally underused (Denise, carol) or utterly defined by men Strong personalities? What about Cora? I certainly wouldn't mess with her. And Ava seems to speak get mind and stand up for herself. Actually so does Lola. Oh and Bianca. |
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#10 |
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Um people called kat a Slag because she was cheating on her husband.... Jack on the other hand isn't married.
Strong personalities? What about Cora? I certainly wouldn't mess with her. And Ava seems to speak get mind and stand up for herself. Actually so does Lola. Oh and Bianca. And yes I agree I missed a few good characters there - I actually think Lola is a breath of fresh air amongst a generally weak young cast. And Cora is certainly a force to reckoned with. I don't think I can make a statement either way about Ava at this point though. I actually appreciate that they are giving bianca a life outside of who she is sleeping with but I find the character utterly appalling so you'll have to forgive me on that one. However, I still believe the general tone for female characters is one revolving around men - Lauren, Whitney, Kirsty, Tanya, roxy, Lucy, Alice, sharon, even Janine before she left (although that is being put right) |
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#11 |
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Aside from the bad storytelling - that either of these women, who we knew very well, would leave their families at points of crisis - this smacks of lazy writing.
Especially with zaibab - turning all the characteristics we have come to understand and even love about her, into her nagging her husband so he can justify wanting to be with a young girl - i agree it's lazy sexism. Poor masood with his nagging wife. We had spent a lot of time investing in the fact that she was so much more than that. And the fact that it is run by a woman is irrelevant, sexism isn't exclusive to the realms of men Bad storytelling and sexism are not the same thing. You still seem to miss the point the actresses chose to quit and they had to get rid of them somehow. Other than death or jail how else would you have them leave? Or would you get rid of the entire family. Not really practical when they all have different contracts. And if we're talking good exits for strong females here should I mention pat? Ronnie? like I said death or prison good exit. But if they want the door left open they have to walk away. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Face. Palm.
Bad storytelling and sexism are not the same thing. You still seem to miss the point the actresses chose to quit and they had to get rid of them somehow. Other than death or jail how else would you have them leave? Or would you get rid of the entire family. Not really practical when they all have different contracts. And if we're talking good exits for strong females here should I mention pat? Ronnie? like I said death or prison good exit. But if they want the door left open they have to walk away. My point was the bad story telling and lazy writing had facilitated sexism - as an easy, 'go to' solution for the problem rather than spend time thinking up a decent exit for a character which we, as viewers, had connected with. It was easier to make zainab an awful nagging wife who masood just couldn't deal with anymore even though they have spent the last few years setting their marriage apart from that notion. Pats exit was ok until they shoehorned Derek into as their story telling is as subtle as a sledge hammer. This has nothing to do with sexism by the way just a lack of respect for pam. And do not even get me started on Ronnie - who came in a storing woman with issues and became a whimpering mess obsessed with getting pregnant on a constant merrygoround with jack. That's what women do to you see... We just all want babies at the end of day so we steal them if we can't have one of our own. Look, I'm not suggesting that the whole show is sexist, or that every single character is terrible. When a character decides to leave they have to write them out somehow - I'm not saying I know how, but I don't get paid a considerable salary by the beeb to come up with ideas. I understand that sex and relationships is a big part of why we watch. I take issue with writers falling back on lazy stereotypes of women - or painting them as terrible mothers (usually retconning) in the absence of good storytelling |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Jack cheated on ronnie with roxy. Who also gets a hard time for sleeping with someone. And what about max? He doesn't get half the vitriol on here that Kat did?
And yes I agree I missed a few good characters there - I actually think Lola is a breath of fresh air amongst a generally weak young cast. And Cora is certainly a force to reckoned with. I don't think I can make a statement either way about Ava at this point though. I actually appreciate that they are giving bianca a life outside of who she is sleeping with but I find the character utterly appalling so you'll have to forgive me on that one. However, I still believe the general tone for female characters is one revolving around men - Lauren, Whitney, Kirsty, Tanya, roxy, Lucy, Alice, sharon, even Janine before she left (although that is being put right) ![]() The entire point of Whitney is she is defined by her tragic experiences at the hands of evil men Kirsty I agree but then I'd say the Sam for max too he's defined by his women so a match made in Heaven. Tanya - well she had at least one big storyline that didn't revolve around a man - cancer Roxy post Ronnie Yes but pre Ronnie I'd say she's more definedbyher sister Lucy... Lucy is just a bitch and always has been and she hasn't had a boyfriend in ages and she came into her own when she had to step up and take care of the family business she was responsible and grown up Alice is a drip that's the point Janine the cold hearted bitch loves Michael that's the point. Again she abandoned her child because the actress took a break not because the scriptwriters wanted her too. Now what about the men eh? Cheats? max jack Villains? Carl, Phil Nutjobs? Michael Numpties? Alfie, fatboy Cowards? Ian The men hardly come off any better than the women now do they? |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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I'd say Lauren is more influenced by alcohol
![]() The entire point of Whitney is she is defined by her tragic experiences at the hands of evil men Kirsty I agree but then I'd say the Sam for max too he's defined by his women so a match made in Heaven. Tanya - well she had at least one big storyline that didn't revolve around a man - cancer Roxy post Ronnie Yes but pre Ronnie I'd say she's more definedbyher sister Lucy... Lucy is just a bitch and always has been and she hasn't had a boyfriend in ages and she came into her own when she had to step up and take care of the family business she was responsible and grown up Alice is a drip that's the point Janine the cold hearted bitch loves Michael that's the point. Again she abandoned her child because the actress took a break not because the scriptwriters wanted her too. Now what about the men eh? Cheats? max jack Villains? Carl, Phil Nutjobs? Michael Numpties? Alfie, fatboy Cowards? Ian The men hardly come off any better than the women now do they? My issue is that the men you've listed already have more variety and storylines then any of the women, who's main angle seems to be about who they are sleeping with. |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly but I am perfectly aware of the difference thank you.
My point was the bad story telling and lazy writing had facilitated sexism - as an easy, 'go to' solution for the problem rather than spend time thinking up a decent exit for a character which we, as viewers, had connected with. It was easier to make zainab an awful nagging wife who masood just couldn't deal with anymore even though they have spent the last few years setting their marriage apart from that notion. Pats exit was ok until they shoehorned Derek into as their story telling is as subtle as a sledge hammer. This has nothing to do with sexism by the way just a lack of respect for pam. And do not even get me started on Ronnie - who came in a storing woman with issues and became a whimpering mess obsessed with getting pregnant on a constant merrygoround with jack. That's what women do to you see... We just all want babies at the end of day so we steal them if we can't have one of our own. Look, I'm not suggesting that the whole show is sexist, or that every single character is terrible. When a character decides to leave they have to write them out somehow - I'm not saying I know how, but I don't get paid a considerable salary by the beeb to come up with ideas. I understand that sex and relationships is a big part of why we watch. I take issue with writers falling back on lazy stereotypes of women - or painting them as terrible mothers (usually retconning) in the absence of good storytelling Peggy's exit was fine. They burned down the Vic in her honour it was symbolic of the end of an era - I'd say the showed her plenty of respect. And given most of her children weren't even on the sq is hardly like she abandoned them Ronnie had to suffer the death of two children and she did the right thing in the end. Tanya hasn't even left yet so wait and see... |
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#16 |
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My issues isn't that the women are painted badly... I actually appreciate the good bad shades in EE across both genders.
My issue is that the men you've listed already have more variety and storylines then any of the women, who's main angle seems to be about who they are sleeping with. Lauren alcoholism Alice kleptomania and grief Lucy running family business Cora adoption Bianca child joins a gang Carol menopause Abi exams Lola - lexi Sharon - pill addiction Dot - the snake ![]() I see plenty of variety here and it doesn't all revolve around men and who they're sleeping with although those elements may cross into it |
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#17 |
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Zee was always a nag and a social snob. She left as one too. Her exit was poor but ultimately it had to facilitate massood starting with the show.
Peggy's exit was fine. They burned down the Vic in her honour it was symbolic of the end of an era - I'd say the showed her plenty of respect. And given most of her children weren't even on the sq is hardly like she abandoned them Ronnie had to suffer the death of two children and she did the right thing in the end. Tanya hasn't even left yet so wait and see... Zainab's exit was very poor but then so was Christian & Syed's and Anthony's, so it's not just female characters who suffer from poor writing and they couldn't kill Zainab off, which meant they had to break-up Masood and Zainab. Zee is the women who told her son that he was better off dead than gay and whilst Masood has been a pain in the arse at times and has never accepted responsibility for his part in their marriage problems, she has always been a snob. |
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#18 |
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And again
Lauren alcoholism Alice kleptomania and grief Lucy running family business Cora adoption Bianca child joins a gang Carol menopause Abi exams Lola - lexi Sharon - pill addiction Dot - the snake ![]() I see plenty of variety here and it doesn't all revolve around men and who they're sleeping with although those elements may cross into it Abi is becoming :yawn: she won't last long if she remains miss perfect and Sharon's pill addiction storyline has been as poorly done as Zainab's exit. There's no sexism in EE, just poor writing, except for Lauren's slow descent into alcoholism. |
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#19 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Over the years EE has indeed become increasingly conservative and sexist in its representation of female characters to the point where a strong, independent woman is simply unimaginable (Ava longing for a man who has abandoned her 20 years ago, how bad can it get?)
Nowadays there is a lot more emphasis on sex-appeal and looks (yummie mummies), almost every female character is confined to the traditional role of wife and/or mother (to be) and she is invariably blamed, punished and judged for not getting it 'right' or worse, for merely fulfilling her own desire. What is even more disturbing is that actresses such as Jo Joyner actually collude with the perpetuation of sexism (as many women do, unfortunately). |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Quote:
Over the years EE has indeed become increasingly conservative and sexist in its representation of female characters to the point where a strong, independent woman is simply unimaginable (Ava longing for a man who has abandoned her 20 years ago, how bad can it get?)
Nowadays there is a lot more emphasis on sex-appeal and looks (yummie mummies), almost every female character is confined to the traditional role of wife and/or mother (to be) and she is invariably blamed, punished and judged for not getting it 'right' or worse, for merely fulfilling her own desire. What is even more disturbing is that actresses such as Jo Joyner actually collude with the perpetuation of sexism (as many women do, unfortunately). And frankly if you think ava is bad what about alfie? Loving for a woman who cheated on him. It's easy to be selective to try and support and argument but they do it with the men as well as the women. All the women are wives and mothers? What about abi striving to do well in her exams. Ava career woman. Janine the boss of her own empire. Kat and bianca running their own business. They happen to be wives and mothers too cos that's what people do. And please do highlight for me in the other soaps where they're not all wives and mothers too? All mothers get punished and blamed? like bianca who helped her son through his gang storyline and did the right thing? Or ava who has roundly been praised by those around her including Sam for bringing up dexter so well... |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Um people called kat a Slag because she was cheating on her husband.... Jack on the other hand isn't married.
Strong personalities? What about Cora? I certainly wouldn't mess with her. And Ava seems to speak get mind and stand up for herself. Actually so does Lola. Oh and Bianca. Cora is a selfish alcoholic who smoked inside where small children were and her daughter who had cancer. Got drunk when babysitting Oscar and he fell down the stairs. A male poster on here called a single Sharon sleeping with Jack a slag so it wasn't just the married women getting spoken about this way. Like Cora is an addict. Sharon used to be strong and Cora isn't. Bianca is not strong she is also a bad mother. Tiffany had a camera phone, widescreen telly yet she could not afford to feed them? Even got angry when they took Tanya's rolls as pride is more important than your children getting a meal. She commits crime and is rude setting a bad example to her children that isn't strong but weak. EE doesn't have strong women anymore. |
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#22 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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All true. Carol did the same, didn't see her family for about 9 years
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#23 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 786
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Ava is being seduced by him and frankly I think he's up to something. .. But you know ava is a woman and has needs.
And frankly if you think ava is bad what about alfie? Loving for a woman who cheated on him. It's easy to be selective to try and support and argument but they do it with the men as well as the women. All the women are wives and mothers? What about abi striving to do well in her exams. Ava career woman. Janine the boss of her own empire. Kat and bianca running their own business. They happen to be wives and mothers too cos that's what people do. And please do highlight for me in the other soaps where they're not all wives and mothers too? All mothers get punished and blamed? like bianca who helped her son through his gang storyline and did the right thing? Or ava who has roundly been praised by those around her including Sam for bringing up dexter so well... EE is the only soap that I have watched consistently over the years and what attracted me in the first place were the strong matriarchal figures who played a dominant role in the community (Lou, Pauline, Peggy, Pat, Dot) and the importance of female friendship and support in the lives of women. There is not much left of that matriarchal tradition. Over the past couple of years (particularly under BK), the lives of female characters in EE have become increasingly male-defined and miserable. It seems you have to be over the age of 65 in Albert Square to escape the tyranny of romance and pregnancy/motherhood. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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So tonight we've got Ava running around making puppy eyes at the ex husband who walked out on her and her child (does she ever go to work?), Lucy desperately trying to get her claws into the ex boyfriend she knows is in love with her on-off best friend, and Kirsty also mooning around trying to win her husband back despite the fact that he's clearly not interested.
I wonder if the writer's room at Elstree is as pathetically anti-feminist as the world they create on-screen. |
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#25 |
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So tonight we've got Ava running around making puppy eyes at the ex husband who walked out on her and her child (does she ever go to work?), Lucy desperately trying to get her claws into the ex boyfriend she knows is in love with her on-off best friend, and Kirsty also mooning around trying to win her husband back despite the fact that he's clearly not interested.
I wonder if the writer's room at Elstree is as pathetically anti-feminist as the world they create on-screen. |
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