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Old 23-06-2013, 19:40
spaintv
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Hey all, this weekend I started watching a few classic serials. Ive started by sampling a few from each of the Doctors, but the plan is to start a Classic Who rewatch from the first Doctor onwards soon.

As I prepare to watch - many for the first time - I am particularly keen on canon, continuity etc as I like keeping an eye for these things just for fun. I am also keen on moments when canon / continuity has been dismissed, ignored or not been taken into consideration.

I am aware that the Genesis of the Daleks readdressed the Dalek creation story, retconning what was previously stated in earlier serials??

Just thought it fun to start up a thread where perhaps people would care to contribute. I don't mind spoilers - like I say, I am keen to keep an eye out for such and watch their evolution on screen so feel free to comment.

Thanks
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Old 23-06-2013, 19:43
Khof
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I'm not sure exactly what sort of continuity you're looking for, as there is a whole lot of it throughout the programme.

tardis.wikia.com has a "continuity" section for nearly every episode (these sections are on the episodes' own pages; you have to scroll down to near the bottom), so you can look there for complete lists of connections each episode has to others.

Or are you looking for instances of inconsistencies with established canon?
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Old 23-06-2013, 19:46
spaintv
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Thanks for that Khof! It is just the sor of thing I was after. I meant to general continuity in relation to recurring characters, the Doctor himself, and even stories which might reappear later on
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Old 23-06-2013, 19:51
Khof
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Thanks for that Khof! It is just the sor of thing I was after. I meant to general continuity in relation to recurring characters, the Doctor himself, and even stories which might reappear later on
You're very welcome.

This should be a good starting point:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/List_of...vision_stories

You can get to all the information on every episode from there.
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Old 23-06-2013, 19:52
spaintv
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You're very welcome.

This should be a good starting point:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/List_of...vision_stories

You can get to all the information on every episode from there.
Fantastic. What a brilliant site - hadn't looked at it before! Many many thanks!
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Old 23-06-2013, 19:56
spaintv
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Am truly amazed at the level of detail! How very thorough !
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Old 24-06-2013, 00:35
Mrfipp
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Doctor Who canon is very tricky to deal with, even if you count only the televised episodes.

Personally, I take most things with a grain of salt.
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Old 24-06-2013, 00:41
tiggerpooh
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Am truly amazed at the level of detail! How very thorough !
Apparently in The Sontaran Strategem from 2008, when the Tenth Doctor and the 'Clone' version of Martha Jones walk through the double doors, behind them you can see the filming cameras reflected in the glass in the right hand door!

I was looking out for that when I watched a programme about continuity errors on BBC3, two years ago. The one that was presented by Robert Webb, but sadly, it wasn't mentioned.

Also, in The Dæmons from 1971, the news reporter mentions BBC3, over thirty two years early!
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Old 24-06-2013, 01:25
Dr. Linus
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If you're looking for really major breaches of continuity about general concepts within the show, the main ones I can think of are:

- The Brain of Morbius heavily implies that there were several Doctors before the First - but it's been stated many times before and after that this isn't the case.

- The TV Movie has the Doctor state that he is half-human, and that his mother was human. This has never been referred to again, except when it was basically debunked in Journey's End.

- The nature of paradoxes and exactly what the Doctor is allowed to do varies wildly depending on the writer. The new series has restored a bit of order to the confusion but still has bizarre one-off paradox events like Father's Day or The Wedding of River Song that don't correlate with anything else.

- In The Five Doctors, the Second Doctor and his companions all refer to events that happened literally seconds before the companions lost their memories forever and the Second Doctor died. This is such a massive breach of continuity that fans and writers have put together a whole other SEASON of events after the Second Doctor's last story to accommodate it. Although most, like myself, ignore it instead of rewriting a landmark story (The War Games).

- In the first episode, Susan states that she made up the name TARDIS from the name of the machine. But in every episode featuring any Time Lord, they're all at it. Unless every Time Lord in the universe liked Susan's idea and copied it, that one doesn't work.
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Old 24-06-2013, 02:04
Khof
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- The Brain of Morbius heavily implies that there were several Doctors before the First - but it's been stated many times before and after that this isn't the case.
When I first saw that episode, I thought it was showing all the previous incarnations of Morbius. It wasn't until I looked at the wiki that I learned that the writers intended those to be the Doctor's incarnations. I like to think now that those faces were the original TARDIS crew before the Doctor stole it, and he just has them in his head because of the telepathic link he has with the TARDIS.

- In the first episode, Susan states that she made up the name TARDIS from the name of the machine. But in every episode featuring any Time Lord, they're all at it. Unless every Time Lord in the universe liked Susan's idea and copied it, that one doesn't work.
This is what I always thought. The Doctor clearly held quite a bit of power on Gallifrey before he left, so he probably took Susan's suggestion and brought it up to the High Council as a replacement for "time capsule". From there it seems like it's become more of a colloquial term with "time capsule" remaining the more technical/boring name.
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Old 24-06-2013, 02:42
So 3008
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Although less of a cock up than the UNIT Dating Controversy, New Who also has it's own dating problems thanks partly to Davies fondness of referencing past episodes. The timeline of RTD contemporary Earth stories has to be like so -

Spoiler


Doctor Who Magazine, The History of the Universe (2012), Who-ology (2013) and The Time Traveller's Almanac (2008) and even RTD himself in The Writers Tale all support this timeline.

However Donna contradicts this by stating during The Fires of Pompeii that she is from 2008, the onscreen webpages in Waters of Mars also state the Dalek Invasion took place in 2008 (although Adelaide's age during the attack does support the 2009 date); and Torchwood: Miracle Day specifies that Gwen joined Torchwood in 2006, despite the fact it clearly states in the first series she joined after the events of Doomdsay, which has to have taken place in 2007. Still at least there's only a years discrepancy this time around, and not a whole decade!
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Old 24-06-2013, 05:02
So 3008
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Some more contradictions to the general mythos of the show:

-The Doctor having built the TARDIS was later changed to the Doctor having stole it.

-The TARDIS, originally just a machine (that the First Doctor insisted could not possibly be alive or sentient) become a living thing, grown and not built.

-The Doctor's one heart become two.
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Old 24-06-2013, 05:48
Yoshee
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Although less of a cock up than the UNIT Dating Controversy, New Who also has it's own dating problems thanks partly to Davies fondness of referencing past episodes. The timeline of RTD contemporary Earth stories has to be like so -

Spoiler


Doctor Who Magazine, The History of the Universe (2012), Who-ology (2013) and The Time Traveller's Almanac (2008) and even RTD himself in The Writers Tale all support this timeline.

However Donna contradicts this by stating during The Fires of Pompeii that she is from 2008, the onscreen webpages in Waters of Mars also state the Dalek Invasion took place in 2008 (although Adelaide's age during the attack does support the 2009 date); and Torchwood: Miracle Day specifies that Gwen joined Torchwood in 2006, despite the fact it clearly states in the first series she joined after the events of Doomdsay, which has to have taken place in 2007. Still at least there's only a years discrepancy this time around, and not a whole decade!
To be honest I always just left this one as Davies cocked it up and retconned the whole Rose having been gone for a year thing later... or at least just forgot about it, as future episodes in the show are clearly supposed to correlate with the time that they were originally aired. It doesn't make too much difference anyway I guess, and if RTD and others still say this is the timeline then... good for them? Though that means that there would be an 11th Doctor running around in the same year that the 10th Doctor is still running around and regenerates in (the date that the cracks originate from/the TARDIS explodes on in Series 5 is shown to be 2010). Not impossible, they could have been there at different times, but still... wouldn't it have just been easier to say "oh actually it was 2004 when the Doctor and Rose met and then 2005 was the year the Slitheen ship crashed into Big Ben and 'Aliens of London' happened"?
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Old 24-06-2013, 08:01
TEDR
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In a programme about time travel I don't think there are any discontinuities — there are merely things that happen off screen which leave the viewer to catch up.

Besides those already mentioned, the reappearance of Skaro is one, Davros deciding to return to having half a body (still without the hand) is another.
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Old 24-06-2013, 10:15
johnnysaucepn
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- In The Five Doctors, the Second Doctor and his companions all refer to events that happened literally seconds before the companions lost their memories forever and the Second Doctor died. This is such a massive breach of continuity that fans and writers have put together a whole other SEASON of events after the Second Doctor's last story to accommodate it. Although most, like myself, ignore it instead of rewriting a landmark story (The War Games).
Also that Two Doctors features the Second Doctor and Jamie on a mission for the Time Lords - the Doctor was still on the run from them and hadn't mentioned them at all to Jamie until the story in which he had his memory of the Doctor erased.
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Old 24-06-2013, 10:39
Dr. Linus
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Also that Two Doctors features the Second Doctor and Jamie on a mission for the Time Lords - the Doctor was still on the run from them and hadn't mentioned them at all to Jamie until the story in which he had his memory of the Doctor erased.
Indeed. Although I love The War Games so much that I'd rather turn a blind eye to the lazy writing that created those problems, and keep the ending to The War Games as it is. I dislike retconning in any form, and when it happens to a classic episode purely because a future writer cocked up, that frustrates me very deeply.
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Old 24-06-2013, 10:43
Dr. Linus
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Although less of a cock up than the UNIT Dating Controversy, New Who also has it's own dating problems thanks partly to Davies fondness of referencing past episodes. The timeline of RTD contemporary Earth stories has to be like so -

Spoiler


Doctor Who Magazine, The History of the Universe (2012), Who-ology (2013) and The Time Traveller's Almanac (2008) and even RTD himself in The Writers Tale all support this timeline.

However Donna contradicts this by stating during The Fires of Pompeii that she is from 2008, the onscreen webpages in Waters of Mars also state the Dalek Invasion took place in 2008 (although Adelaide's age during the attack does support the 2009 date); and Torchwood: Miracle Day specifies that Gwen joined Torchwood in 2006, despite the fact it clearly states in the first series she joined after the events of Doomdsay, which has to have taken place in 2007. Still at least there's only a years discrepancy this time around, and not a whole decade!
The only thing I can think of regarding Donna is that it's very early 2009 and she's doing that thing where you still think it's the previous year until a few weeks/months in. It would fit with Donna's general ditziness. Doesn't explain the Dalek invasion or Gwen though.

The thing is, that was always going to happen. In Aliens of London RTD effectively stuck a bomb under every writer's chair by moving everything forward a year - in a period where we had so, so many contemporary Earth stories someone was always going to forget that part and it so happened that RTD himself ended up ballsing it up.
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Old 24-06-2013, 10:44
be more pacific
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In The Five Doctors, the Second Doctor and his companions all refer to events that happened literally seconds before the companions lost their memories forever and the Second Doctor died. This is such a massive breach of continuity that fans and writers have put together a whole other SEASON of events after the Second Doctor's last story to accommodate it. Although most, like myself, ignore it instead of rewriting a landmark story (The War Games).
How does Season 6B get around there being no gap between the Doctor's sentencing and the start of his regeneration? I can just imagine the Time Lords saying something like:
"The has come for you to change your appearance, Doctor, and begin your exile. Actually, scrub that. Change of plan. Stop the Auto-Regenerator, guys. Stop gurning, Doctor. The time has come for you to just begin your exile. We'll park the regeneration thing for the time being."
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Old 24-06-2013, 10:54
Dr. Linus
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How does Season 6B get around there being no gap between the Doctor's sentencing and the start of his regeneration? I can just imagine the Time Lords saying something like:
"The has come for you to change your appearance, Doctor, and begin your exile. Actually, scrub that. Change of plan. Stop the Auto-Regenerator, guys. Stop gurning, Doctor. The time has come for you to just begin your exile. We'll park the regeneration thing for the time being."
That's apparently exactly what happened. The theory states that because we don't see the regeneration, the Time Lords jumped in at the very last moment (after the "no! no! no!" bit as he fades away) and decided they had work for him to do first.

Doesn't wash with me. No reason why they couldn't have done that with the Third Doctor without an aborted regeneration for him to deal with. No reason to bring back Jamie, especially as uprooting him again would create even more intervention than the Doctor already had.

It's obvious that the original intent was for the Second Doctor to be somewhere in his televised tenure in all the multi-Doctor stories, and even though Terrance Dicks has acknowledged the Season 6B theory because he's so embarrassed about the mistakes, none of this makes me want to watch The War Games knowing that the ending is not the ending.
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Old 24-06-2013, 13:16
TRT1968
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This is what I always thought. The Doctor clearly held quite a bit of power on Gallifrey before he left, so he probably took Susan's suggestion and brought it up to the High Council as a replacement for "time capsule". From there it seems like it's become more of a colloquial term with "time capsule" remaining the more technical/boring name.
I thought it was just Susan being a precocious little git in front of her teachers. A bit like if you had a laser gun and went around saying 'I call it a "LASER"'.
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