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2010 Sony TV no longer able to receive 4Music


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Old 28-06-2013, 11:00
gush
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The latest D Book V6.2.1 standard specifies the technical specifications for Freeview HD kit in the UK. It introduces two new aspects of Freeview HD.

One is the transcoding of surround sound, the other is support for enhanced interactive services (called the MHEG Interaction Channel), which are used to provide internet streaming channels via the Red Button service.
In order for 4Music to retain their broadcast license on the Freeview platform they have to meet the requirements of the current D Book standard - which they do!

This new functionality should NOT break existing Freeview receivers i.e older Freeview SD and HD kit should simply ignore those channels or display a message stating that the channel is not supported.

Unfortunately, some kit like 2010 Sony Freeview HD TVs and others react badly - that is because their firmware is flawed and could be corrected to react gracefully to the presence of channels using MHEG Interaction.
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Old 28-06-2013, 11:40
Rowan146
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This is what Sony have just sent me ...

... Thank you for contacting Sony support regarding your KDL-37EX403. We are sorry to learn that the TV switches off with 4Music channel.

In regards to your query, sadly 4Music channel is an internet channel which is not compatible your TV.

I am sorry I cannot be of greater assistance on this occasion; however I hope that my e-mail has gone some way to clarifying this matter.

Thank you for your enquiry. ...

So a Tv bought less than three years ago can suddenly as of this month no longer receive a mainstream Freeview channel UNLESS you disable the internet features of your TV or unplug the lan cable.

Thank you Sony for being so understanding !
46EX713 here and having the same issue. Want to know what is stupid? Our Sony CRT KD32DX100 works perfectly fine on 4Music.
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Old 28-06-2013, 12:21
stylo
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46EX713 here and having the same issue. Want to know what is stupid? Our Sony CRT KD32DX100 works perfectly fine on 4Music.
It's because your CRT isn't connected to the internet. Disconnect the 'EX' TV from the net, and that should be fine as well!. (or just do as I've done here on 2 affected TVs and 2 Freeview receivers... delete the offending channel )
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Old 28-06-2013, 12:33
gush
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So what are you going to do when other channels start using MHEG Interaction - delete them all?

The reason we are in this mess is sloppy firmware that just reboots the onboard processor because it gets confused - fix the firmware and the problem goes away.

Why do you think there is an on screen message facility stating that this channel is not supported - it's because the standard mandates it for those Freeview HD systems that are not supported.

THE STANDARD DOES NOT MANDATE THAT A SYSTEM REBOOT SHOULD OCCUR !!!!!!
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Old 28-06-2013, 13:01
stylo
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So what are you going to do when other channels start using MHEG Interaction - delete them all?

The reason we are in this mess is sloppy firmware that just reboots the onboard processor because it gets confused - fix the firmware and the problem goes away.

Why do you think there is an on screen message facility stating that this channel is not supported - it's because the standard mandates it for those Freeview HD systems that are not supported.

THE STANDARD DOES NOT MANDATE THAT A SYSTEM REBOOT SHOULD OCCUR !!!!!!
OK, no need to 'shout' sunshine, I can 'hear' you

First off, I'm not getting a 'not supported' message on the TVs or the receivers with this channel, which is what I would have expected if my kit couldn't handle the service. They are simply rebooting.

Is it dodgy firmware from Sony (and others) causing this issue?, I don't know for sure. What I am sure about is that the problem goes away if the LAN cable is removed, which suggests 4Music is now pumping something down my internet connection that they weren't before, whether I want it or not.
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Old 11-07-2013, 20:47
SkyPlatinum
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I have suffered this problem for a while, where my 2010 Sony kept rebooting when connected to the Internet. Sony have just replaced it with a brand new top of the range KDL46W905ABU. They replaced it after the 3rd visit to the service centre where they said they couldn't fix it. Very pleased
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Old 14-07-2013, 04:18
skiller
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I have this problem from a 2010 Sony model KDL-40EX403.

4Music have changed their service, breaking various items - totally their fault.
I can't decide in my own mind which party is at fault, but this is the reply I got from Channel4/4Music:

Dear x,

Thank you for contacting Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries.

We were sorry to hear that you are having trouble viewing 4Music. We would advise, however, that this is not an issue we at Channel 4 are able to assist you with.

Our best suggestion would be to contact the equipment manufacturer or those who sold you the product in order to find a solution.

We are sorry we are unable to help on this occasion but thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Kind regards,

Oliver Cross
Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries


I have also requested assistance from Sony but have yet to receive a reply (it is the weekend after all, so I won't expect one till Monday).

I am expecting Sony to reply that it is a fault of the 4Music channel. If that is the case, then that is not acceptable - two parties where each blame the other?

I have suffered this problem for a while, where my 2010 Sony kept rebooting when connected to the Internet. Sony have just replaced it with a brand new top of the range KDL46W905ABU. They replaced it after the 3rd visit to the service centre where they said they couldn't fix it. Very pleased
Interesting. May I ask what the model of your malfunctioning tv was? I don't have problems whenever I access the Internet, only when accessing LCN 18 (4Music).

Can't imagine they'd replace mine with a massive 3D tv like yours!
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Old 14-07-2013, 18:44
Nigel Goodwin
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I am expecting Sony to reply that it is a fault of the 4Music channel. If that is the case, then that is not acceptable - two parties where each blame the other?
As you say, it's a difficult situation - but the TV worked when you bought it, and has worked for three years - 4Music have made changes to their service, and it no longer works.

I think it's pretty clear who has caused the problem?.

The solution would be either 4music correcting what's they've done, or Sony re-writing the software to cope with it.
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Old 15-07-2013, 02:18
skiller
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As you say, it's a difficult situation - but the TV worked when you bought it, and has worked for three years - 4Music have made changes to their service, and it no longer works.

I think it's pretty clear who has caused the problem?.

The solution would be either 4music correcting what's they've done, or Sony re-writing the software to cope with it.
Like I said before, I'm still unsure where the blame, if any, lies. In these fast-moving times in tv broadcasting technology, it's difficult to know what should be expected in products. Prior to DSO, I knew that if I bought an analogue-only tv, I'd soon have to buy a digital STB to receive any tv broadcasts at all - this was (hopefully) common knowledge. But to buy a "Smart" tv which reboots with no warning is definitely a fault (with some party).

At the moment, this is just the one channel that is having a problem and there is no guarantee that you will have access to any particular channel forever, but as gush says above, what if many other (or all!) channels suddenly switched to Dual Mode? Then my tv would overnight not be "Smart" in practical terms. Ok, it'd still be "Smart", but I'd have to plug/unplug the ethernet cable every time.

I'm by no means an expert in consumer law, but it's been under three years since it was purchased. Is that a long enough timescale for "fit for purpose" not to be relevant?

I'm surprised that Channel 4 are washing their hands of this as they must surely be losing viewers (although not that many really, in the grand scheme of things).
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Old 15-07-2013, 08:15
iiyama17
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As you say, it's a difficult situation - but the TV worked when you bought it, and has worked for three years - 4Music have made changes to their service, and it no longer works.

I think it's pretty clear who has caused the problem?.

The solution would be either 4music correcting what's they've done, or Sony re-writing the software to cope with it.
Actually Nigel, I don't think it is that clear cut. I have a 24EX320 and and am also having this problem (although it only seems to occur when I press the red (more music channels) button. If I don't do that then 4Music works as normal even when it is connected to my network. Perhaps I haven't tried it for long enough though?

HOWEVER....the ConnectTV IP channels, which were working fine in the past, are now also having this issue with the tv locking up and rebooting.

So, whether my tv was meant to be compatible with IP channels or not, it used to work with them. I can only presume that a recent firmware upgrade has now caused this problem and reduced the functionality.
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Old 15-07-2013, 10:00
SkyPlatinum
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I wrote to the CEO of Sony in the end and his executive office sorted out the replacement tv for me. I was under a 5 year warranty though and the engineer said because it was a software issue it couldn't be resolved. I recorded the tv resetting itself on YouTube and sent it to them, they didn't like that. You can force the 2010 Bravas to malfunction by turning the volume up and down on the 4 music channel
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Old 15-07-2013, 10:02
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Christopher.bowen@eu.sony.com
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Old 17-07-2013, 15:24
gush
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I'm still waiting for a reply from Sony UK - I emailed them (inc cc to christopher.bowen@eu.sony.com) on 27th June.

Rebooting occurs not only on 4Music but on several other less well known channels - all use MHEG Interaction in one form or another.

Either Sony issues a fix or the TV has become not fit for purpose!

I believe MHEG Interaction will be introduced by the BBC next year for their Red Button services - when that happens Sony will have an almighty mess on their hands!

Sony will have to rewrite their firmware to cope with these channels or face a serious customer backlash.
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:02
AidanLunn
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This is what Sony have just sent me ...

... Thank you for contacting Sony support regarding your KDL-37EX403. We are sorry to learn that the TV switches off with 4Music channel.

In regards to your query, sadly 4Music channel is an internet channel which is not compatible your TV.I am sorry I cannot be of greater assistance on this occasion; however I hope that my e-mail has gone some way to clarifying this matter.

Thank you for your enquiry. ...

So a Tv bought less than three years ago can suddenly as of this month no longer receive a mainstream Freeview channel UNLESS you disable the internet features of your TV or unplug the lan cable.

Thank you Sony for being so understanding !
That's just absolute horseshit of the manurest kind from them.

The fact that they think it's an incompatible internet stream, when it's (supposed to be) just a bog-standard Freevierw channel compatible with all (supposed to be all) Freeview TVs gives that away.

EDIT: Noticed it only when the TV is connected to the internet.

I will state this - the fault lies with both the manufacturer and whoever it is that Channel 4 contract out to play 4Music. 4music unleashed an update that is not compatible with some TV sets - however difficult it would be to cooperate with the manufacturers to sort out this problem - therefore they are responsible at their end.

On the other hand, if Sony TVs can't display a certain IPTV channel(s) and an even older TV from a different manufacturer can, who do you think is responsible for the choice of firmware that the manufacturer chose? Not the broadcasters that's for sure . . .
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:04
AidanLunn
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Isn't this more of a problem created by 4Music themselves, as opposed to Sony??

I can understand a piece of equipment not being able to access certain 'features', but for a transmitted program to actually close down and restart the TV just by visiting the channel (whether intentionally or by accident) seems 4Music should actually be addressing this problem!
Have you ever tried to contact a channel that contracts out their transmission and playout services to other companies about technical faults?
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Old 18-07-2013, 00:09
skiller
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As I said a few posts above, I contacted 4Music and they replied to say that it wasn't their fault. I had also sent a complaint to Sony's "Contact Us" page but hadn't received a reply by Monday so I took SkyPlatinum's advice and contacted the CEO directly by email.

To their credit, I got a reply today (only 2 days later) which said:

Dear x,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry to read that you are experiencing a problem viewing 4Music on your Sony Bravia.

If you contact our technical support team on 0844 846 6555 quoting the case number xxxxxxx, they will be able to troubleshoot this problems and arrange a repair if necessary.

Kind regards

Puck Jackson,
on behalf of Christopher Bowen

SONY SUPPORT TEAM


I then phoned this number and had a 25 minute discussion about it. It all came to nothing. The woman on the end of the line appeared to appreciate exactly what the problem was, but was politely insistent that it was not a fault and therefore could not replace the tv with one which was compatible with the "new" 4Music channel. In summary, her answer was that it was still a watchable channel - all I needed to do was unplug my ethernet cable whenever I wanted to watch this channel. We both agreed that there are many other channels which these models are not compatible with, but she didn't accept my argument that a channel causing the tv to reboot was a fault as opposed to the other channels which simply display a friendly "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device."

Actually, I did find it difficult to argue with her on this. If 4Music decide to make their channel practically unwatchable on some devices then who are we to argue, considering plenty of other channels have never been watchable from their launch?

Obviously, not a satisfactory conclusion. Perhaps I don't have the negotiation skills to put my point across well enough.

But I will be making a formal complaint to both Channel 4 and Sony.

However, this does raise another (probably naive and slightly off-topic) question in my mind. Those channels at around LCN 225-236 that give me the "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device.":[LIST][*]225 VISION[*]226 CCTV[*]227 Sports[*]228 Christian[*]229 CONNECT 2[*]230 VISION2[*]231 Racing UK[*]232 The Space[*]234 CONNECT 4[*]235 GOD TV[*]236 SONY SAB[/LIST]
What devices do they work on? I have a Humax YouView box which is less than 3 months old and even that cannot view them.

PS: Thanks to SkyPlatinum for the CEO's email address. Also, could you provide the link to your YouTube evidence please?
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Old 18-07-2013, 00:30
Winston_1
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Some of them work on the Ican easy set top box. Some cause it to crash.

Personally I don't think these channels will last long with little hardware out there.

We have seen it all several times before, the most recent being the Trove service.
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Old 18-07-2013, 00:36
stylo
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Have you ever tried to contact a channel that contracts out their transmission and playout services to other companies about technical faults?
No I haven't, and in all honesty I wouldn't waste my time trying on this particular channel, as to me it's insignificant.

As mentioned previously, '4Music' has now been deleted here from 4 pieces of affected kit, and that's just one household.

If more people do the same, and it comes to the attention of the folk responsible for the channel, then hopefully they will do something about it.

(In the meantime however, I won't be losing any sleep over it! )
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Old 18-07-2013, 00:49
skiller
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No I haven't, and in all honesty I wouldn't waste my time trying on this particular channel, as to me it's insignificant.
I agree it's a pretty insignificant channel, but personally I think a complaint is worth much more than abstaining from the channel.

This is a matter of principle. A few weeks ago we lost 4Music, but what next?
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Old 18-07-2013, 03:14
mac2708
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It may be irrelevant but I found this here http://www.a516digital.com/2013/05/b...-internet.html

Can my Freeview box/TV get the new channels?
If you are able to watch CCTV on channel 226 and Sports Tonight on channel 227, then it is likely that you will be able to watch Magic, Kiss and Kerrang via the new portal, accessed via 4Music. There isn't an official list of receivers that are compatible yet. Add your comment below to share your experiences of getting the service. (Google account required - e.g. G+ or Gmail)

Why won't my receiver work on these channels?
Only newer (most 2012 and all 2013 onward models) Freeview HD-spec receivers were designed with broadband connectivity [with] such services in mind.
update: this means that the latest Freeview HD models can launch the portal and connect to the stream on the internet. Older Freeview HD models may be able to access the internet, but weren't designed to link to the internet via such services as the 4Music red button.

Apologies if this has already been linked to
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1829547
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Old 18-07-2013, 10:02
iangrad
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As I said a few posts above, I contacted 4Music and they replied to say that it wasn't their fault. I had also sent a complaint to Sony's "Contact Us" page but hadn't received a reply by Monday so I took SkyPlatinum's advice and contacted the CEO directly by email.

To their credit, I got a reply today (only 2 days later) which said:

Dear x,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry to read that you are experiencing a problem viewing 4Music on your Sony Bravia.

If you contact our technical support team on 0844 846 6555 quoting the case number xxxxxxx, they will be able to troubleshoot this problems and arrange a repair if necessary.

Kind regards

Puck Jackson,
on behalf of Christopher Bowen

SONY SUPPORT TEAM


I then phoned this number and had a 25 minute discussion about it. It all came to nothing. The woman on the end of the line appeared to appreciate exactly what the problem was, but was politely insistent that it was not a fault and therefore could not replace the tv with one which was compatible with the "new" 4Music channel. In summary, her answer was that it was still a watchable channel - all I needed to do was unplug my ethernet cable whenever I wanted to watch this channel. We both agreed that there are many other channels which these models are not compatible with, but she didn't accept my argument that a channel causing the tv to reboot was a fault as opposed to the other channels which simply display a friendly "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device."

Actually, I did find it difficult to argue with her on this. If 4Music decide to make their channel practically unwatchable on some devices then who are we to argue, considering plenty of other channels have never been watchable from their launch?

Obviously, not a satisfactory conclusion. Perhaps I don't have the negotiation skills to put my point across well enough.

But I will be making a formal complaint to both Channel 4 and Sony.

However, this does raise another (probably naive and slightly off-topic) question in my mind. Those channels at around LCN 225-236 that give me the "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device.":[LIST][*]225 VISION[*]226 CCTV[*]227 Sports[*]228 Christian[*]229 CONNECT 2[*]230 VISION2[*]231 Racing UK[*]232 The Space[*]234 CONNECT 4[*]235 GOD TV[*]236 SONY SAB[/LIST]
What devices do they work on? I have a Humax YouView box which is less than 3 months old and even that cannot view them.

PS: Thanks to SkyPlatinum for the CEO's email address. Also, could you provide the link to your YouTube evidence please?
Just tried all these channels on a Pana "connected" TV and the all work as intended -- just a little slow to start up ?
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Old 18-07-2013, 17:07
xtaz
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After reading this thread I thought I'd try it on my TV. I have a 2010 Sony HX703. Interestingly it doesn't reboot and lets me happily watch the channel. However, it does slow right down. Pressing the up/down volume takes about 20 seconds before it does anything. Put it on another channel and it's instant.
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Old 20-07-2013, 01:16
AidanLunn
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As I said a few posts above, I contacted 4Music and they replied to say that it wasn't their fault.
Of course it wouldn't be.

However, it could be the fault of the company that Channel 4 contract out to transmit their channel.

There is no fault at 4Music - because there is no transmission equipment there, therefore no transmission equipment to cause the fault that you are experiencing are in their hands.
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Old 21-07-2013, 06:22
skiller
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Of course it wouldn't be.

However, it could be the fault of the company that Channel 4 contract out to transmit their channel.

There is no fault at 4Music - because there is no transmission equipment there, therefore no transmission equipment to cause the fault that you are experiencing are in their hands.
I disagree. It may not be Channel 4's fault directly, but as far as the end-user is concerned, they (along with Sony) are the only apparent causes of the problem.

If the ultimate reason for the problem is caused by the company that is transmitting the broadcast, then Channel 4 surely have a duty to redirect my complaint to that company. You cannot relinquish all your responsibilities to your customers simply because the faults are caused by companies you have contracted out to.

But now this is getting far more technical for your average Joe. Are you saying that I can't complain to Tesco if I find one of their tins of soup contained fish instead of tomatoes as it said on the label? Of course I can, because Tesco is the retailer where I bought it from. I'm not expected to complain to the people who fill the tins am I?

It's not a precise analogy but it fits the bill. The end-user should always complain to the nearest link in the chain.

And whether they have a duty to do so or not is neither here nor there really. If I were in charge of Channel 4, I should notice that it is in my interests to make sure that my programmes are transmitted correctly. So I would call in my transmission people and my Sony contacts and hammer out a way to sort this thing out.

Same with Sony.

But both seem to want to call it a day and move on, leaving a lot of unhappy users of expensive equipment.

At the end of the day, both Channel 4 and Sony are losing customers by not opening their eyes to this.
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Old 25-07-2013, 00:12
packages
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As I said a few posts above, I contacted 4Music and they replied to say that it wasn't their fault. I had also sent a complaint to Sony's "Contact Us" page but hadn't received a reply by Monday so I took SkyPlatinum's advice and contacted the CEO directly by email.

To their credit, I got a reply today (only 2 days later) which said:

Dear x,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry to read that you are experiencing a problem viewing 4Music on your Sony Bravia.

If you contact our technical support team on 0844 846 6555 quoting the case number xxxxxxx, they will be able to troubleshoot this problems and arrange a repair if necessary.

Kind regards

Puck Jackson,
on behalf of Christopher Bowen

SONY SUPPORT TEAM


I then phoned this number and had a 25 minute discussion about it. It all came to nothing. The woman on the end of the line appeared to appreciate exactly what the problem was, but was politely insistent that it was not a fault and therefore could not replace the tv with one which was compatible with the "new" 4Music channel. In summary, her answer was that it was still a watchable channel - all I needed to do was unplug my ethernet cable whenever I wanted to watch this channel. We both agreed that there are many other channels which these models are not compatible with, but she didn't accept my argument that a channel causing the tv to reboot was a fault as opposed to the other channels which simply display a friendly "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device."

Actually, I did find it difficult to argue with her on this. If 4Music decide to make their channel practically unwatchable on some devices then who are we to argue, considering plenty of other channels have never been watchable from their launch?

Obviously, not a satisfactory conclusion. Perhaps I don't have the negotiation skills to put my point across well enough.

But I will be making a formal complaint to both Channel 4 and Sony.

However, this does raise another (probably naive and slightly off-topic) question in my mind. Those channels at around LCN 225-236 that give me the "You do not have a compatible Freeview HD device.":[LIST][*]225 VISION[*]226 CCTV[*]227 Sports[*]228 Christian[*]229 CONNECT 2[*]230 VISION2[*]231 Racing UK[*]232 The Space[*]234 CONNECT 4[*]235 GOD TV[*]236 SONY SAB[/LIST]
What devices do they work on? I have a Humax YouView box which is less than 3 months old and even that cannot view them.

PS: Thanks to SkyPlatinum for the CEO's email address. Also, could you provide the link to your YouTube evidence please?
Youview isn't Freeview HD.
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