Maybe they should introduce a labelling system utilising traffic lights to make it easier.

Red------------- HD ready no Freeview
Amber ---------Full HD no freeview
Green ----------Full HD with Freeview

Ah...The OP would still be confused....Has the Full HD with Freeview got a HD tuner or not or should he just assume...Which is what they did in the first place..

Despite everyone being keen to jump down OP's throat on this, I agree with him. It's very suggestive to have written HD in big letters all over the TV packing & promotional guff. It suggests that the TV is a HD tv. Granted everybody on here is a techo and wants the world to know it but the world is made up of people who take things at face value and don't know what they don't know; my parents amongst them. Selling stuff is about suggestion, and HD in big letters suggest that you can take the tv home and watch HD on it out of the box. Using the absence of the phrase HD tuner as justification for him not having a leg to stand on is unfair too. Are there any other phrases that he should look for not being on the box?

Good luck OP. I know you're on a hiding to nothing and that the disappointing view on here is largely 'neh its yer own fault you should have read up on it', but tough. To my mind there's a clear suggestion that the TV provides HD.

And it does - just not Freeview HD - you simply need a suitable HD source to feed it.

As has been repeatedly stated here, there were never any plans for HD on Freeview - and all the confusion results from the bodged introduction of it at the last minute, when the HD Ready and Full HD terms were already years old and well understood.

Blimey, this one still gonig?!

It's what you perceive to be true i.e If you sense something is true by instinct, but not necessarily by fact

It's a bit like (especially with broadband) the 'up to' description and prices for certain items and/or services may be given as 'from' - but people just read the headline figure and not the detail

Well the Argos TV didn't say "Full Freeview HD" did it?!?

Unless.... surely you're not expecting a "Full HD TV with DVD" to play HD-DVD and BD media are you?

Effectively your argument says yes you are, but still... no-one could be that naive could they?

So it's an SD TV and HD monitor and should be described as such in the item summary and on the box - not in some "explanations" page elsewhere that most people will never read.

Just because dodgy descriptions were allowed before built-in HD tuners were included doesn't mean they are right now that they are, or because a bunch of techy types like us in here happen to know what's what.

Again, the 'lack' is the introduction of Freeview HD, LONG after it had been decided that it would never be introduced - so complain to the government who suddenly 'changed their mind' at the very last minute.

The terms HD Ready and Full HD are long standing and should be understood by anyone wanting to purchase a TV, and if they aren't?, then a potential purchaser should research before buying (simply asking in the shop is all that's needed).

Would they expect the TV to come with SKY HD because it said HD ready? No of course they wouldn't (surely),

But the TV IS an HD TV.

The term High Definition Television refers to the resolution the TV can display, namely for Full HD that is 1920x1080, as agreed internationally between all manufacturers and broadcasters/governments.

The FullHD logo is used on PC monitors, AV monitors used in studios (without tuners) and other such equipment. It does NOT refer to the standard of the tuner inside the TV but is used to give an indication of the resolution the TV/Monitor supports. It has been that way for a number of years now. It is now also used on BluRay players, camcorders (and some phones) and other equipment capable of recording and/or outputting full HD.

If you specifically seek a TV that has a Freeview HD tuner built in then you look for one with this logo:
http://gonedigital.net/wp-content/uploads/FVHDflat2.jpg

I have NEVER seen a Freeview HD TV on sale that does not have that logo on the TV itself, or at the very least on the box and in the accompanying literature.

Should other HD equipment without tuners (such as the afore mentioned monitors, HD camcorders, BluRay players and the like) not show the appropriate HD logos just because some people might think they have Freeview HD tuners built in?.

If the OP's father had been seeking a TV with a built in Freesat HD tuner he would have looked for the Freesat HD logo I presume, I doubt he would automatically have assumed the TV had such a tuner just because it says it is Full HD, same thing with Freeview HD.

So are you implying that my 27 inch HD monitor can reasonably be described as an HD TV? I use it to display TV pictures all the time, fed by an HDMI cable from my computer... but an HD TV? No.

It also displays SD pictures, fed by the same HDMI cable... but an SD TV? I think not.

So if it's neither an HD TV nor an SD TV, it isn't a TV. If it had an in-built SD tuner it would be an SD TV but not an HD TV... and that is the point of the O/P.

The descriptions of some TVs are in this day and age wrong and they should be changed. I have no problem with the "HD Ready" or "Full HD" logos as they can equally apply to TVs and monitors (my monitor has "Full HD" on it) - but the "TV" bit ("vision at a distance") is the issue here.


See my answer to Nigel, above. It's an SD TV and an HD monitor.

Only in YOUR imagination - NOT in the official definitions of the terms.

You can make up any names you like, but they aren't official and recognised, so are pretty pointless.

Perhaps you would like to travel back in time and try and prevent the official names being created?

You've missed the point. The definitions are out of date and should be updated, or the necessary clarification should be added to the item description and the stickers used on display items. Either would do fine, and that's all I am saying. The latter especially isn't rocket science, manufacturers and vendors could do it tomorrow and it would cut down the number of time-wasting queries that consumers have to remember to ask (and sometimes forget).

The main trouble with the existing HD logos is that there are at least half a dozen of them in use and none of them tell you on their own if the screen includes a built-in HD TV tuner or not, which can be confusing. Many people just wouldn't expect a screen marked "Full HD" and "Freeview" to be incapable without an external source of displaying any HD TV programmes, so why not clarify that in the description? Labels cost pennies.

They have been updated, with the Freeview HD logo/label the one you need for Freeview HD.

You can't suddenly alter the historic existing labels, as they are already out there - and nothing has changed in regard to them.

I don't want to get into an argument about it, I'll even go along with not changing existing logos, all I'm asking for is a bit of extra clarification in the description to avoid people having to look up the meaning of the dozen or more logo combinations involved.

So if an HD TV includes only an SD tuner, it should say in the item description something like:

HD Ready 1080p
Freeview (not HD).

So where do you draw the line? - should it also say (not Freesat), (not Freesat HD), (not BluRay) etc.

Specifications include what it HAS - not what it hasn't.

Well what it HAS is a standard definition TV tuner. That would do fine (so Freeview SD). Black and white TVs eventually said so, when colour became the expectation... so as peoples HD expectations increase, it makes sense to clarify things.

So in your three examples, Full HD monitor (I have one!), Freesat SD (if it exists), DVD player (oh...). Something like that, a few extra words cost pennies.

Technology and expectations move on.

This thread gives me chuckles

Finally managed to talk Dad about going to Trading Standards. The line I used was "suppose all the Freeview HD channels closed down, it would still be a Full HD telly?"

He kinda got that...but the whole episode has made him wary of buying any new tech, including mobile phones (his current one is a brick).

Doesn't help the industry if people are worried sick about buying something they want but don't understand. Took me 6 months to work out what "android" was/meant - it kept being mentioned on stuff like "Click" but no-one bothered to explain.

Strange how stuff is dumbed-down to the point of banality but when we really DO need help on programmes like Click it isn't there; understandable as it's about the one quality programme left and it would be a shame if half-way through Spencer stopped the programme and said "just for HowardH and his Dad, a "Smart Tv" is one which when you turn on you........"

Why not ask the question when buying the TV. , Can this TV be used to watch broadcast HD TV in the UK ?. If the salesman get's it wrong then it's clearly not fit for purpose is it . ?

Your problem here is that you expect everything to be explained to you. You are connected to the internet and have access to all the information in the world - why not use that resource and find some things out for yourself?

Well, it would still be fit for the purpose it was manufactured, but, the salesman wouldn't.
However, in this case, it doesn't seem that even this basic mode of research was done.

well, in a sort of way, Smart phones are not phones - they are pocket PCs that can be used to make calls. In a similar way, can you make a phone call using an iPad? If you buy the model with SIM card in it, why not?

FWIW, I think the poster who thought up SD TV/HD Monitor is spot on. As I have such a tv I think this matches the capability spot on. It is a SD tv, but can display HD via external devices (FreesatHD, FreeviewHD, SkyHD, CableHD, BluRay, PC).

The local supermarket often has many cheap FullHD sets on the shelf by a certain cheapo brand, and at first glance this looks very good value, but not one of them has FreeviewHD built in - only the "Freeview" wording and logo is used. So while newer than my set + with a higher resolution, they are still SD TVs/HD Monitors.

Most HD TV's do have a mpeg4 HD DVB-T tuner. Generally TV makers make a single model for Europe. Take one to France and you will be able to view HD French Terrestrial TV on it. It's the newer DVB-T2 system used in the UK that's the issue. Hence the Freeview-HD badge.