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The Pro Cycling Thread (Part 2)


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Old 14-07-2013, 21:29
aggs
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So, if you assume all the main contenders are doping - what then?

If Froome/Sky need to be beaten because they are doping - who is going to be the non-doped to beat him/them?

Does the fact that in its 100 years the Tour has been plagued with banned substances and general chicanery suggest that it is something that would be difficult to ride let alone win without the help of fistfuls of steroids, caffeine suppositories or other performance enhancers mean anything?

Could it be that in the quest to get a routine which excites the spectators - Mont Ventoux!!, 2 times up Alpe d'huez!!, - the route planners are actively planning a route that has the riders looking at it and thinking oh-ho? The televised tour needs afternoons like today - the excitement and the spectacle of man beating mountain.

Yes, some riders have and more than likely still do dope, but to assume its a simple problem to which there is an easy answer is simplistic.

But really, my question is still if not Froome/Sky - then who?
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:02
Dare_Allan
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That's my point though, if people stopped trying to second guess everything and assuming the worst, they wouldn't be asking the questions, so this ridiculous continuance of suspicion wouldn't be continuing to ruin cycling.

Innocent until proven guilty is the general rule, so why cycling fans can't abide by that, I don't know.
The problem is a simple one.

At no time in its history have pro cycling teams done out of competition training. Partly because the continental sponsors demanded that their "stars" perform at any worthless criterium just so they see their men out there and partly because drugs became the alternative to training and you shot yourself up when your body rebelled after 200 race days in a year.

That's the difference with Sky. They are British Cycling and use British Cycling's established and effective performance programme. They spend more time training than riding in competitions and the rest of the teams STILL don't train out of competition.

Historically Continental teams used drugs as an ALTERNATIVE to training. Sky now use training to dominate and it works and Froome demonstrates that again and again.
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:06
fluffed
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I think Quintana is age doping, he looks to be in his mid 40s in his interviews!

People saying Froome's performances are too good and he must be on drugs, are the questioning Quintana too? Seeing as Froome has been a consistent performer going up hills/ ITTs in grand tours over the past couple of years, and this 23 year old comes only 30 secs down.
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:12
Dare_Allan
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Trouble is like with athletics people will see cycling as having a certain reputation.
But Athletics doesn't suffer nearly the same as Cycling. Tyson Gay had a positive test. The number of 100m men with a positive test is astonishingly high. Again and again the sport fails on testing. But cycling gets the reputation despite doing more testing and more work to catch cheats.

Athletics still doesn't have a biological passport system as cycling does. It somehow avoids the tarnished image cycling does.

TBH i think a lot of this is to do with how sponsorship works in cycling. If you take the sponsor names out the teams you would really help it. The problem for cycling is you get things like "The Festina Affair" where the sponsor becomes synonymous with cheating. Name the teams on a different basis and the sponsors will still get ridiculous returns (SKy got $550m of exposure last year for a $10m investment).

Call Sky "Britannia Racing" and there's no risk to sponsors (tbh there isnt a risk as Sky is clean), But for other teams it would work well and consistently Even using the "Slipstream sponsored by garmin" or "Greenedge sponsored by Orica" would work.

Cycling is a truly awesome sport, This years tour is amazing and exciting and entertaining and worth every minute you watch it.
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:13
Dare_Allan
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So, if you assume all the main contenders are doping - what then?

If Froome/Sky need to be beaten because they are doping - who is going to be the non-doped to beat him/them?
British Cycling don't dope or need to dope.

The assumption is broken.
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:19
Dare_Allan
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What? Maybe when the GDR were doing it in the 1980's, but that stuff hasn't gone on for years. Even US Postal was relatively small scale with a handful of people organising it. Most doping these days seems to be lesser known riders buying stuff off the internet to make sure they get a contract next year.
Why are the Spanish government trying to destroy the Operation Peurto blood bags?
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:28
afx237vi
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Why are the Spanish government trying to destroy the Operation Peurto blood bags?
Probably because they're starting to reek by now.

Or because the blood bags were part of a judicial process, which is now over, and they don't need them any more. Why would the Spanish government care about a sporting issue in which it has no say? How would people feel if the British goverment interfered with judicial process and tried to access evidence it had no right to? Fuentes was tried in a criminal case, not a sporting one.

It's weird how people like to cook up conspiracy theories about some nationalities while placing blind faith in others.
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Old 14-07-2013, 23:31
Tiger Rose
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But Athletics doesn't suffer nearly the same as Cycling. Tyson Gay had a positive test. The number of 100m men with a positive test is astonishingly high. Again and again the sport fails on testing. But cycling gets the reputation despite doing more testing and more work to catch cheats.

Athletics still doesn't have a biological passport system as cycling does. It somehow avoids the tarnished image cycling does.

TBH i think a lot of this is to do with how sponsorship works in cycling. If you take the sponsor names out the teams you would really help it. The problem for cycling is you get things like "The Festina Affair" where the sponsor becomes synonymous with cheating. Name the teams on a different basis and the sponsors will still get ridiculous returns (SKy got $550m of exposure last year for a $10m investment).

Call Sky "Britannia Racing" and there's no risk to sponsors (tbh there isnt a risk as Sky is clean), But for other teams it would work well and consistently Even using the "Slipstream sponsored by garmin" or "Greenedge sponsored by Orica" would work.

Cycling is a truly awesome sport, This years tour is amazing and exciting and entertaining and worth every minute you watch it.
Not true - and there have been a few athletes caught recently resulting from this including the Turkish women's 1500m champion
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Old 15-07-2013, 00:11
Dare_Allan
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Not true - and there have been a few athletes caught recently resulting from this including the Turkish women's 1500m champion
My apologies for error. It is good to know that other sports are following cyclings lead in bringing in Bio passports.
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Old 15-07-2013, 01:23
Groundhog
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Hallucinant

Never seen anyone sprint away from their rivals on the Ventoux whilst sitting down. Ridiculous turn of pace. Then spend the rest of the climb chatting on his ear piece like it's a gentle afternoon stroll. Maybe Brailsford told him how ridiculous it looked? Average speed of 21kmh. Same time up the climb as Pantani? (Not sure, lots of conflicting times floating around cyberspace at the moment).

Oh and he obliterated his GC rivals in the TT a few days previously. Just a few seconds behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
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Old 15-07-2013, 06:19
aggs
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British Cycling don't dope or need to dope.

The assumption is broken.
I don't believe they do either - but obviously some do.

If that is someone's personal assumption then I'm just interested to know who they think is worthy of winning.
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Old 15-07-2013, 06:22
charliesays
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Hallucinant

Never seen anyone sprint away from their rivals on the Ventoux whilst sitting down. Ridiculous turn of pace. Then spend the rest of the climb chatting on his ear piece like it's a gentle afternoon stroll. Maybe Brailsford told him how ridiculous it looked? Average speed of 21kmh. Same time up the climb as Pantani? (Not sure, lots of conflicting times floating around cyberspace at the moment).

Oh and he obliterated his GC rivals in the TT a few days previously. Just a few seconds behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
The Clinic on cyclingnews is more your forum.
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Old 15-07-2013, 07:50
paul2307
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The problem is a simple one.

At no time in its history have pro cycling teams done out of competition training. Partly because the continental sponsors demanded that their "stars" perform at any worthless criterium just so they see their men out there and partly because drugs became the alternative to training and you shot yourself up when your body rebelled after 200 race days in a year.

That's the difference with Sky. They are British Cycling and use British Cycling's established and effective performance programme. They spend more time training than riding in competitions and the rest of the teams STILL don't train out of competition.

Historically Continental teams used drugs as an ALTERNATIVE to training. Sky now use training to dominate and it works and Froome demonstrates that again and again.
Over the last 40 years I have known many of the pro-peleton and can assure you that your talking rubbish
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Old 15-07-2013, 08:34
Eater Sundae
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Never seen anyone sprint away from their rivals on the Ventoux whilst sitting down. Ridiculous turn of pace. Then spend the rest of the climb chatting on his ear piece like it's a gentle afternoon stroll. Maybe Brailsford told him how ridiculous it looked? Average speed of 21kmh. Same time up the climb as Pantani? (Not sure, lots of conflicting times floating around cyberspace at the moment).

Oh and he obliterated his GC rivals in the TT a few days previously. Just a few seconds behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
Proving what? He was riding at what seemed to be a high cadence compared with everyone else. He was delivering his torque through high speed and (comparatively) low pedal load. He can deliver that much more effectively while sitting down. If he was standing up, it would be much harder to maintain a high cadence. Standing up to accelerate is forced on those riders who are having to operate a higher load because they have lower cadence.
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Old 15-07-2013, 08:46
Department_S
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I think Quintana is age doping, he looks to be in his mid 40s in his interviews!

People saying Froome's performances are too good and he must be on drugs, are the questioning Quintana too? Seeing as Froome has been a consistent performer going up hills/ ITTs in grand tours over the past couple of years, and this 23 year old comes only 30 secs down.
This Quintana guy is 23? He's had some rough teen years then.
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Old 15-07-2013, 08:53
Department_S
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s behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
Er ...........coming 2nd in the Vuelta
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Old 15-07-2013, 09:22
VincentH
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Never seen anyone sprint away from their rivals on the Ventoux whilst sitting down. Ridiculous turn of pace. Then spend the rest of the climb chatting on his ear piece like it's a gentle afternoon stroll. Maybe Brailsford told him how ridiculous it looked? Average speed of 21kmh. Same time up the climb as Pantani? (Not sure, lots of conflicting times floating around cyberspace at the moment).

Oh and he obliterated his GC rivals in the TT a few days previously. Just a few seconds behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
Have a look at this piece in the Guardian a few weeks ago and it answers your suspicions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013...tour-de-france

In particular this bit:

Hunter was so impressed he suggested to Blem, who had just left Barloworld as chief mechanic, that "Froome could win the Tour one day".

It was a bold prediction that Nilsen would eventually endorse. Froome missed the next three Tours because, undetected by European doctors, he was ill with bilharzia – a parasitic disease he had caught in Africa. His performances for his new team at Sky were so inconsistent that Froome seemed in danger of being axed. It was only when visiting Kenya that, before a routine UCI blood passport test, Froome asked the doctor to see if he could identify a cause of his mysterious exhaustion and sickness. The Kenyan blood tests proved that Froome was riddled with bilharzia.

In the exact opposite of a drug like EPO, bilharzia destroys red blood cells and so Nilsen was stunned by Froome's ability to keep riding despite the debilitating disease. He told his friend that, restored to full health, he would win the Tour de France. "Chris just looked at me and said: 'Are you serious?'" Nilsen recalls. "I had no doubt."
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Old 15-07-2013, 09:30
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Er ...........coming 2nd in the Vuelta
I think Dan Martin also bagged a mountain stage back then, so maybe they're all at it together.

Recall thinking at the time that the Wiggins/Froome set up already had echoes of the Hinault/LeMond and Delgado/Indurain sagas of 20 years ago ... exciting times indeed.
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Old 15-07-2013, 09:59
bobcar
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Hallucinant

Never seen anyone sprint away from their rivals on the Ventoux whilst sitting down. Ridiculous turn of pace. Then spend the rest of the climb chatting on his ear piece like it's a gentle afternoon stroll. Maybe Brailsford told him how ridiculous it looked? Average speed of 21kmh. Same time up the climb as Pantani? (Not sure, lots of conflicting times floating around cyberspace at the moment).

Oh and he obliterated his GC rivals in the TT a few days previously. Just a few seconds behind the World TT Champion.

Where was he 2-3 years ago?

No, I can't see why anyone would have any doubts.
You should learn a bit more about him. He was performing pretty well despite suffering from this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis

Care to retract at least that bit and admit you are very ignorant about him?
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Old 15-07-2013, 10:20
CosmoSmallpiece
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Froome's riding yesterday was the best cycling that a British cyclist has ever ridden. I just hope that it was drug-free. It reminded me of Pantani some years ago with the same edge and dynamism that trailed that flawed genius. x.
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Old 15-07-2013, 11:25
culttvfan
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Froome's riding yesterday was the best cycling that a British cyclist has ever ridden. I just hope that it was drug-free. It reminded me of Pantani some years ago with the same edge and dynamism that trailed that flawed genius. x.
I agree. a mind-blowing performance which understandably raises questions. Let's hope against hope that these suspicions are unfounded, but history would suggest otherwise.

On a personal level I'm a big Froome fan. It makes a welcome change having a British cyclist who's cerebral and modest rather than petulant and divarish.
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Old 15-07-2013, 15:38
Lucidia2011
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I'm not going to spend my life thinking ''what if'', i want to enjoy this time cos it may never come again.

If the worst comes to the worst and the bubble bursts i will be ready for the upset but let's wait and see what happens.
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Old 15-07-2013, 15:43
SJB 2007
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Another interesting fact i dug up in the Froome is he... Isn't he.

Quintana was born and raised at 3,000ft above sea level. That would explain how he performs well on climbs

Froome was born and raised (Nairobi, Kenya) at 5,889 ft above sea level.

Remarkably, understanding of the detail biological mechanism has revealed that this adaptation is indeed an observable instance of the principle of Darwinian evolution in humans, the process of natural selection acting on favourable characters such as enhanced respiratory mechanisms
People who become acclimatized to the effects of altitude most easily are those born at higher altitudes, generally above 5,000 feet. In fact, research projects conducted over the last two decades have shown that merely being born at a high altitude is often sufficient.

''High altitude natives have a larger chest capacity,'' Dr. Appenzeller said, ''and therefore are better able to take in what oxygen is available and deliver it to the tissues.''


The more i read about athlete's, who like Quintana and Froome are born at altitude, the better they are at keeping oxygen in the blood naturally.

I'm now more convinced that Froome is not doping.
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Old 15-07-2013, 15:54
aggs
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I seem to remember way back when, that that is what EPO was heralded as - a way to get the benefits of altitude training without the altitude. A lot of the Kelme riders at that time had special dispensations for the haemocrit levels, because they were naturally high, as well, if memory serves.

While I'm on about my hazy memory - can someone help out.

I seem to think that next year is the cut of point for people who ride the road - like Brad and Cav - for deciding if they want to return to ride the track for the 2016 Olympics? I seem to remember hearing (but may well have dreamt it!) during the London Games that track riders can cross over to the road without any trouble, but if road riders want to race track they have to have been doing it for 2 years under the regulations?

Which could be interesting if true, bearing in mind the road race route is not Cav-friendly and an Olympic gold is the big one missing from his trophy cabinet.
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Old 15-07-2013, 15:57
aggs
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I'm not going to spend my life thinking ''what if'', i want to enjoy this time cos it may never come again.

If the worst comes to the worst and the bubble bursts i will be ready for the upset but let's wait and see what happens.
Totally agree - my big heros are Kelly, Indurain and Pantani - so well used to feet of clay.

I can see why people ask questions - and they should - but the answers are going to be the same for a doped rider pretending to be clean and a clean rider asserting he is clean.
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