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"The 'Real' White Queen & her Rivals", Weds, 17/07, BBC2, 9pm


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Old 11-07-2013, 20:19
Kapellmeister
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Excuse me?!?!

Acclaimed author Philippa Gregory presents this two-part documentary series revealing the powerful true stories of three remarkable women who inspired BBC Oneís current historical drama The White Queen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/pro...er-rivals.html

Exactly what sort of hold does this woman have on the BBC?? She gets wheeled out for the Anne Boleyn documentary (her ridiculous views shot down in flames by genuine historians), her romantic scribblings get made into a 'historical drama' (the historical content of which has been roundly trashed), and now she's getting another bite of the cherry in a two-part documentary.

Note to the BBC, believe it or not there are many perfectly accomplished and qualified genuine historians who could write and present the programme. Why keep foisting this latter-day Catherine Cookson upon us?? 'Acclaimed author' my arse. I would call Mantell an 'acclaimed author'. Gregory is merely successful, like Jeffery Archer before her.

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Old 11-07-2013, 21:14
ChrissieAO
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Excuse me?!?!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/pro...er-rivals.html

Exactly what sort of hold does this woman have on the BBC?? She gets wheeled out for the Anne Boleyn documentary (her ridiculous views shot down in flames by genuine historians), her romantic scribblings get made into a 'historical drama' (the historical content of which has been roundly trashed), and now she's getting another bite of the cherry in a two-part documentary.

Note to the BBC, believe it or not there are many perfectly accomplished and qualified genuine historians who could write and present the programme. Why keep foisting this latter-day Catherine Cookson upon us?? 'Acclaimed author' my arse. I would call Mantell an 'acclaimed author'. Gregory is merely successful, like Jeffery Archer before her.

Have you actually read any of her books? Sorry but she does not write in the Catherine Cookson style and I have read both. Cookson wrote exclusively romantic novels, usually poor heroine gets rich man. Gregory's books have some romance but often they are a lot darker.
'A Respectable Trade', about slavery,was televised a few years ago and was not a happy tale that I remember.
Her historical facts may not always be accurate but she can write a very readable novel.
I know I am flogging a dead horse on this forum because I think I am the only one who likes her books...
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Old 11-07-2013, 21:37
Kapellmeister
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Have you actually read any of her books? Sorry but she does not write in the Catherine Cookson style and I have read both. Cookson wrote exclusively romantic novels, usually poor heroine gets rich man. Gregory's books have some romance but often they are a lot darker.
'A Respectable Trade', about slavery,was televised a few years ago and was not a happy tale that I remember.
Her historical facts may not always be accurate but she can write a very readable novel.
I know I am flogging a dead horse on this forum because I think I am the only one who likes her books...
Gregory herself is hardly Dostoyevsky.
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Old 11-07-2013, 21:55
ChrissieAO
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Gregory herself is hardly Dostoyevsky.
Why should she need to be?? I would not give a thank you to read Crime And Punishment or The Brothers Karamazov....obviously I am not an intellectual reader....
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Old 11-07-2013, 22:10
Kapellmeister
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Why should she need to be?? I would not give a thank you to read Crime And Punishment or The Brothers Karamazov....obviously I am not an intellectual reader....
'Crime and Punishment' is a wonderful book, but that's not the issue. Gregory shouldn't be cavorting around on TV as a historian when there are eminently more qualified people who can do the same job.
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Old 17-07-2013, 01:36
Kapellmeister
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I don't think I'll be able to watch this when it's on so I'm recording it.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:03
Kapellmeister
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I'll be watching this when it's shown but won't be able to share my thoughts until afterwards.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:19
Murraymar
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Thanks for highlighting it. Didn't realise it was on
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Old 17-07-2013, 21:14
swingaleg
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Is this a repeat or has it been on BBC4?

Sounds like I've seen it..............
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Old 17-07-2013, 22:21
Kapellmeister
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It was better than the TV drama, that's for sure. But Gregory has this disconcerting manner of projecting 21st century mind-sets onto late 15th century women! The men are presented as medieval but the women, we're led to believe, are some sort of proto-feminists. I also have the suspicion that she was stating rumour, hearsay and supposition as fact.

Also, I found the lack of dates and the lack of locations rather annoying.

7/10 for effort but nowhere near as good as Bragg's documentary on Tyndale.
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Old 18-07-2013, 09:08
broadshoulder
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She does seem into slip into chick lit dialogue about historical figures ie

"Warwick was consumed by an unyielding hatred and jealousy"

Amateur stuff
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Old 18-07-2013, 09:32
barbeler
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I tried to watch it but gave up after ten minutes because it seemed quite shallow, not to mention boring. Her commentary definitely sounded better when she was off-screen.
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Old 18-07-2013, 09:49
ChrissieAO
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I tried to watch it but gave up after ten minutes because it seemed quite shallow, not to mention boring. Her commentary definitely sounded better when she was off-screen.
I watched it all the way through and while I would not go so far as to say boring, it was not exactly riveting and I agree that her commentary sounded better when she was off screen.

I think the trouble for me was, I know the story, having read the books, am watching the TV series and of course all the information gleaned from reading the White Queen thread on this forum...
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Old 18-07-2013, 09:56
moondew
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I really enjoyed it. I think that it would have been very useful to viewers of The White Queen who don't know much about that era.
I noticed that the portrait of Edward IV showed that he had dark brown hair - books I've read say that he was fair-haired. Was the portrait painted from life, or an artist's impression?
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Old 18-07-2013, 10:19
Dan Fortesque
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I sometimes think it would have been better to have been poor back in those days and living as far away from Court as possible. Up until the Restoration, anyway.
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Old 18-07-2013, 10:39
macavity77
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Cookson wrote exclusively romantic novels, usually poor heroine gets rich man.
I haven't watched this programme so can't speak on that however, isn't The White Queen 'poor heroine get's rich man?

I did see Philippa Gregory on something with the lovely sir Tony the other night. Totally agree that we need a change from her. She seems to have become as ubiquitous to history programmes as David Attenborough is to wildlife ones but there really is a world of difference!!
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Old 18-07-2013, 10:48
ChrissieAO
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I haven't watched this programme so can't speak on that however, isn't The White Queen 'poor heroine get's rich man?

I did see Philippa Gregory on something with the lovely sir Tony the other night. Totally agree that we need a change from her. She seems to have become as ubiquitous to history programmes as David Attenborough is to wildlife ones but there really is a world of difference!!
She did not exactly come from a poor family and she did not live happily ever after like most of Catherine Cookson's heroines, wasn't she supposed to have ended up being stripped of her wealth and banished to Bermondsey Abbey??..
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Old 18-07-2013, 12:12
Mystic Dave
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I watched it all the way through and while I would not go so far as to say boring, it was not exactly riveting and I agree that her commentary sounded better when she was off screen.

I think the trouble for me was, I know the story, having read the books, am watching the TV series and of course all the information gleaned from reading the White Queen thread on this forum...
I watched my recording and fell asleep about 40 mins in. I know a bit about it, but this was real cod history - pushing a 21st century agenda back on to bit players to push yourself. These women were just pawns of the key players. I shall not bother with Pt2.
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Old 18-07-2013, 14:50
macavity77
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She did not exactly come from a poor family and she did not live happily ever after like most of Catherine Cookson's heroines, wasn't she supposed to have ended up being stripped of her wealth and banished to Bermondsey Abbey??..
I think the rich poor thing is somewhat relative. She was the widow of a minor noble from the losing side so hardly exactly as flush as the King was going to be. As for the rest of it it isnít relevant to my post. However, Elizabeth hardly died in penury having apparently a comfortable life in the convent with a pension and patronage from Henry VII.
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Old 19-07-2013, 23:05
Hav_mor91
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It was better than the TV drama, that's for sure. But Gregory has this disconcerting manner of projecting 21st century mind-sets onto late 15th century women! The men are presented as medieval but the women, we're led to believe, are some sort of proto-feminists. I also have the suspicion that she was stating rumour, hearsay and supposition as fact.

Also, I found the lack of dates and the lack of locations rather annoying.

7/10 for effort but nowhere near as good as Bragg's documentary on Tyndale.
You Wouldn't like Helen Castor then

I enjoy Gregory you have to go in with knowing that it isn't going to be a factual odyssey in which you will go away with enough knowledge to fill a GCSE exam. But she gives the baisc facts with oppinion if not always fact. I enjoy her for good or bad she has brought TWOTR and The Plantagenets back into the mainstream and hopefully will bring back more interest and general awareness.
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Old 20-07-2013, 00:11
Kapellmeister
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You Wouldn't like Helen Castor then

I enjoy Gregory you have to go in with knowing that it isn't going to be a factual odyssey in which you will go away with enough knowledge to fill a GCSE exam. But she gives the baisc facts with oppinion if not always fact. I enjoy her for good or bad she has brought TWOTR and The Plantagenets back into the mainstream and hopefully will bring back more interest and general awareness.
I quite enjoyed Castor's She-Wolves series though, and she is a proper historian too (at Cambridge University).

Gregory seems to have this proprietorial air regarding the Wars of the Roses, as if the events were her baby. Just annoying!
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Old 20-07-2013, 07:32
gilesb
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I quite enjoyed Castor's She-Wolves series though, and she is a proper historian too (at Cambridge University).

Gregory seems to have this proprietorial air regarding the Wars of the Roses, as if the events were her baby. Just annoying!
Doesn't PG have a history degree? I thought she did.
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Old 20-07-2013, 08:37
petely
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It was better than the TV drama, that's for sure. But Gregory has this disconcerting manner of projecting 21st century mind-sets onto late 15th century women! The men are presented as medieval but the women, we're led to believe, are some sort of proto-feminists. I also have the suspicion that she was stating rumour, hearsay and supposition as fact.

Also, I found the lack of dates and the lack of locations rather annoying.

7/10 for effort but nowhere near as good as Bragg's documentary on Tyndale.
That's a very good observation (probably because I agree with it ) I watched maybe the first half of the programme and was astounded at her lack of any sense of proportion. She was describing the battle of <somewhere> in which 25,000 people (men) reportedly died. Then in almost the next breath she starts on about " ... and let's think about how <someone> felt about having her son taken into care ..."
I realise she was only interested in promoting her agenda, and all the touchy-feely stuff was concealing the total lack of any hard facts. But her presentation was on the same level as the (fictional):
"But apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?"
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Old 20-07-2013, 08:57
broadshoulder
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That's a very good observation (probably because I agree with it ) I watched maybe the first half of the programme and was astounded at her lack of any sense of proportion. She was describing the battle of <somewhere> in which 25,000 people (men) reportedly died. Then in almost the next breath she starts on about " ... and let's think about how <someone> felt about having her son taken into care ..."
I realise she was only interested in promoting her agenda, and all the touchy-feely stuff was concealing the total lack of any hard facts. But her presentation was on the same level as the (fictional):
"But apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?"
Excellent points.
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Old 20-07-2013, 09:29
PinkPetunia
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I found it hard to focus on the programme as I seemed to be drawn to PG's overly botoxed face .Why do women now think that freezing their face makes them look more attractive ? In reality it makes them look all the same and not at all natural .
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