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SD switch off around 2019?


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Old 16-07-2013, 15:16
choppie
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As you have probably heard, the BBC are launching 5 new HD channels by early next year. In the updated BBC news website article it states that Ofcom reserve the right to take back the new frequency allocation at the en of 2018 if its needed for other purposes. The article also stated that 90% of the population are likely to have HD by 2019. I'm reading between the lines here but this seems to suggest that if Ofcom take back the frequencies then there is almost no reason for the BBC to keep their SD channels and reallocate their frequencies to the HD channels.

Am I reading too much ino this?

The article is available here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23326709
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:22
technologist
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The intent by the two PSB and Arqiva is to drive up the take up of HD .
Thus moving onto a no need to dual illuminated the PSB at 2018 or some time afterwards
when probably the replan comes in as the 700 MHz band is reallocated.

I feel that this strong initiative needs the support of the government
Who should within the year withdraw the freeview tick .
.. Thus forcing freeview HD only equipment supply
One for Mr Cable
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Old 16-07-2013, 15:54
noise747
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Not going to happen for many years, i think people would get a bit miffed if they have to buy again. when people upgrade maybe so, but some people already been forced to upgrade when they did not want to.
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Old 16-07-2013, 16:17
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I'd say that it's more likely that the COM muxes will convert to DVB-T2 first, still carrying many SD channels but having extra capacity which might carry some HD - maybe including any BBC services which are displaced when these temporary muxes close. The PSB muxes would remain as DVB-T for a while longer, but with the eventual aim of converting to DVB-T2.
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Old 16-07-2013, 16:51
mossy2103
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When those temporary muxes close (which could be some years beyond 2018 of course, 2018 is not the absolute cutoff date) it's a fair bet that more DVB-T2 space will have been found one way or another. I cannot see 5, 6 or 7 HD channels being removed after the public has had them for four years or more.
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Old 16-07-2013, 17:21
technologist
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yes by conversion of DVB-T Muxes .... probably PSB first.... at the move to 600Mhz band
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Old 16-07-2013, 23:01
Everything Goes
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As you have probably heard, the BBC are launching 5 new HD channels by early next year. In the updated BBC news website article it states that Ofcom reserve the right to take back the new frequency allocation at the en of 2018 if its needed for other purposes. The article also stated that 90% of the population are likely to have HD by 2019. I'm reading between the lines here but this seems to suggest that if Ofcom take back the frequencies then there is almost no reason for the BBC to keep their SD channels and reallocate their frequencies to the HD channels.

Am I reading too much ino this?

The article is available here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23326709
The article isn't being honest or clear on this subject and they should have given a better explanation for this figure!

More than 50% of homes in the UK are already HD-enabled. The BBC said it expected that figure to grow to 90% by 2019.
They are talking about HD Ready TVs and not DVB-T2. The figure for DVB-T2 take up is 20% at the moment. Which is pretty crap considering its been available for almost 4 years!

Viewers will need a HD-compatible DTT receiver in order to access the new services. About 20% of households already have such a device to watch existing HD channels on the platform.
http://media.ofcom.org.uk/2013/07/16...errestrial-tv/

Also DTT has a lot of viewers who don't like changes. Like my mate who still moans about having to buy a STB for switchover. He's pissed off at the prospect of DSO Part 2. While over platforms have made significant inroads with HD take up DTT continues to lag behind and drag its heels. It has a different demographic to other platforms.
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Old 17-07-2013, 12:06
freetoview33
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But it will be a choice of upgrade or loose channels, and I think the Government are at fault for not making DVB-T2 equipment mandatory much sooner! There is an ever increasing squeeze on the spectrum so outdated methods can not be allowed to just waste space
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Old 17-07-2013, 13:44
Winston_1
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when probably the replan comes in as the 700 MHz band is reallocated.
There has been no decision to reallocate the 700MHz band. Only vague talk.
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Old 17-07-2013, 13:58
technologist
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More than vague talk ... But it will happen ... After due consultation and lobbying ..
So the BBC BBC FTV and Arqiva are getting into a good position for what ever happens .. And one can hope that half of D3&4 may have a few words
The timing Of the re allocation process is key but it may be done the a need to top up the consolidated fund rather than on social, economic or technical grounds . .
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Old 17-07-2013, 14:08
OwenSmith
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But it will be a choice of upgrade or loose channels, and I think the Government are at fault for not making DVB-T2 equipment mandatory much sooner! There is an ever increasing squeeze on the spectrum so outdated methods can not be allowed to just waste space
Indeed, DVB-T2 receivers should be mandatory. I bought my parents a 24 inch Sony 1920 x 1080 TV last year, but it only has a DVB-T receiver. Crazy for a Full HD panel! Fortunately they use a PVR with it and don't use the TV's internal tuner, but that wasn't the original plan.
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Old 17-07-2013, 19:20
soulboy77
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Indeed, DVB-T2 receivers should be mandatory.....
I agree, else we will get in a chicken and egg situation with HD. There needs to be enough T2 receivers out there that in advance so that it doesn't present a massive barrier to converting muxes over a reasonable time period.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:36
lbear
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The move to increase the number of HD channels is not to promote HD per se but to encourage acquisition of DVB-T2 capable televisions. The ultimate objective is to switch of DVB-T and have all DVB-T2.

Much will depend on the future uptake of T2 televisions as these will be needed in the case of second or third sets using DTT even if the main household television is connected to another HD source.

The important thing is for OfCom to issue a consultation paper on this ASAP and define the pathway to DVB-T turnoff. My own suggestion is that in 2018 the PSBs move their "analogue" TV and radio channels to the first of the Arqiva muxes which would become the "legacy mux" and remain broadcasting in DVB-T until switchoff. So those with only DVB-T receivers would still be able to watch BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV, Channel 4 and Five and get the main radio stations while their TV reaches the end of its effective life.

Mux BBC A that currently carries their SD channels would convert to T2 to carry four HD channels plus Parliament (and Alba?) in SD. The second Arq mux is then free to convert to T2 and carry the SD channels forced off the "legacy mux" apart of course from those duplicated in HD.

This would mean "Freeview lite" areas would gain two DVB-T2 muxes with one carrying 6 of the channels resulting from this proposal (I am counting BBC Four HD and Cbeebies HD as two even though they time share). At DVB-T switchoff in the early 2020s they would get the five HD slots which will be carried by the second new mux.

This plan also allows the two frequencies in the 600 Mhz band that the new proposal creates to be handed back if they are needed for 4G or 5G telephony. So, ignoring timesharing, all T2 would mean 15 HD channels for everyone and a similar number of SD and radio channels. Main transmitters would still have the COM muxes available for more HD services or an mixture of SD and HD channels.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:44
lotrjw
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I agree, else we will get in a chicken and egg situation with HD. There needs to be enough T2 receivers out there that in advance so that it doesn't present a massive barrier to converting muxes over a reasonable time period.
yes otherwise in 2019 OFCOM will eather have to delay clearing 700Mhz properly, or lots of people will loose loads of channels they are used to! and it will most likely be the latter situation as it would cost OFCOM too much to keep 700Mhz if they are then needing to make it availible to moblie operators!
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:55
lotrjw
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The move to increase the number of HD channels is not to promote HD per se but to encourage acquisition of DVB-T2 capable televisions. The ultimate objective is to switch of DVB-T and have all DVB-T2.

Much will depend on the future uptake of T2 televisions as these will be needed in the case of second or third sets using DTT even if the main household television is connected to another HD source.

The important thing is for OfCom to issue a consultation paper on this ASAP and define the pathway to DVB-T turnoff. My own suggestion is that in 2018 the PSBs move their "analogue" TV and radio channels to the first of the Arqiva muxes which would become the "legacy mux" and remain broadcasting in DVB-T until switchoff. So those with only DVB-T receivers would still be able to watch BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV, Channel 4 and Five and get the main radio stations while their TV reaches the end of its effective life.

Mux BBC A that currently carries their SD channels would convert to T2 to carry four HD channels plus Parliament (and Alba?) in SD. The second Arq mux is then free to convert to T2 and carry the SD channels forced off the "legacy mux" apart of course from those duplicated in HD.

This would mean "Freeview lite" areas would gain two DVB-T2 muxes with one carrying 6 of the channels resulting from this proposal (I am counting BBC Four HD and Cbeebies HD as two even though they time share). At DVB-T switchoff in the early 2020s they would get the five HD slots which will be carried by the second new mux.

This plan also allows the two frequencies in the 600 Mhz band that the new proposal creates to be handed back if they are needed for 4G or 5G telephony. So, ignoring timesharing, all T2 would mean 15 HD channels for everyone and a similar number of SD and radio channels. Main transmitters would still have the COM muxes available for more HD services or an mixture of SD and HD channels.
they will need 1 freeview lite PSB MUX to be T1 though, as this would mean if your on freeview lite, you would not get any service if you dont have T2 equipment.
So keeping BBC A as T1 with all BBC channels in SD and ITV, C4 and C5 in SD squeezed on and have those 10/12(whichever way you look at it with BBC 3,4/Kids timeshare), on the the D3&4 and BBC B MUXs so people with freeview lite would get all those channels in SD and HD! Then the com MUXs go T2 only and carry everything else in a mix of SD and HD! No BBC red button streams on freeview lite in this senario though, unless they make 1 more MUX availible on freview lite transmitters, meaning 4 MUXs to match the 4 channels that used to be availible in the analouge era on those transmitters!
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Old 18-07-2013, 01:41
jj20x
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My own suggestion is that in 2018 the PSBs move their "analogue" TV and radio channels to the first of the Arqiva muxes which would become the "legacy mux" and remain broadcasting in DVB-T until switchoff.
The point of PSB's is that they are widely available, so moving them onto a COM mux would prevent them reaching their intended audience.

Assuming 700MHz is cleared to give even more space to mobile networks, 2 of the existing COM muxes would be moved into the 600 MHz range, onto the channels proposed for use by the temporary multiplexes. A third group of UHF channels, 29/30, 36 and 48 being made available for the 3rd COM mux. PSB muxes would then either stay on their current channel positions or, if the current channels are in the 700 MHz range, move to slots vacated by the COM channels. (There will be some more complicated moves in some areas but let's keep this as simple as possible).

As each COM multiplex would be limited to only 3 channel slots across the country, they will have to operate as regional SFNs which will mean using DVB-T2. So, it's more important to deal with the COM muxes first.

There isn't really the capacity to create temporary legacy muxes. The proposed temporary muxes aren't suitable as they only cover 70% of the population. The existing COM muxes similarly only operate from 80 sites, so don't provide the coverage necessary for a PSB. In any event, the existing COM muxes have extended their operating licences to 2026, so wouldn't be available in time.
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Old 18-07-2013, 01:56
lotrjw
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The point of PSB's is that they are widely available, so moving them onto a COM mux would prevent them reaching their intended audience.

Assuming 700MHz is cleared to give even more space to mobile networks, 2 of the existing COM muxes would be moved into the 600 MHz range, onto the channels proposed for use by the temporary multiplexes. A third group of UHF channels, 29/30, 36 and 48 being made available for the 3rd COM mux. PSB muxes would then either stay on their current channel positions or, if the current channels are in the 700 MHz range, move to slots vacated by the COM channels. (There will be some more complicated moves in some areas but let's keep this as simple as possible).

As each COM multiplex would be limited to only 3 channel slots across the country, they will have to operate as regional SFNs which will mean using DVB-T2. So, it's more important to deal with the COM muxes first.

There isn't really the capacity to create temporary legacy muxes. The proposed temporary muxes aren't suitable as they only cover 70% of the population. The existing COM muxes similarly only operate from 80 sites, so don't provide the coverage necessary for a PSB. In any event, the existing COM muxes have extended their operating licences to 2026, so wouldn't be available in time.
so on clearence of 700Mhz most of freeview will be DVB-T2 whether people like it or not! Well it will give the com MUXs 3 times the capacity they have now! Im sure they will milk that!
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Old 18-07-2013, 02:05
jj20x
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so on clearence of 700Mhz most of freeview will be DVB-T2 whether people like it or not! Well it will give the com MUXs 3 times the capacity they have now! Im sure they will milk that!
Hopefully it will mean the end of 3/4 resolution channels and they will probably be taking some of the HD channels from the temporary multiplexes. The capacity would be more limited than the existing HD mux as they would be operating as regional SFNs.
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Old 18-07-2013, 06:03
pzboyz
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Are people in this thread assuming that switching all MUX's over to DVB-T2 will mean the end of SD channels?

Unless OFCON included a clause that all DVB-T2 MUX;s will be HD, there is no reason why a T2 MUX can not carry an SD channel.
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Old 18-07-2013, 07:44
lotrjw
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Are people in this thread assuming that switching all MUX's over to DVB-T2 will mean the end of SD channels?

Unless OFCON included a clause that all DVB-T2 MUX;s will be HD, there is no reason why a T2 MUX can not carry an SD channel.
I dont think the com channels will drop SD compleatly, but most of the PSB channels will most likely. I think the BBC will drop SD on DSO part 2 and ITV and C4 for their main channels, C4 might also go HD only on their others too, but I really dont know what C5 will do or ITV with 2, 3 and 4 or even CITV?
A clause from OFCOM saying HD only on switch over to T2, would be nice, as we would end SD on broadcast TV in the UK for ever! Only IPTV could then carry SD, meaning TV standards would be forced to improve on TV!
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Old 18-07-2013, 07:55
technologist
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Are people in this thread assuming that switching all MUX's over to DVB-T2 will mean the end of SD channels?

Unless OFCON included a clause that all DVB-T2 MUX;s will be HD, there is no reason why a T2 MUX can not carry an SD channel.
I am not ... But all the UK wide PSB channels and a few other channels will be HD only ( but perhaps not Ch 5!!!!!!!)

But as at the moment the Comm muxes have sub SD resolution .... it may be reasonable to assume that they will improve .. but not to HD...

Also Freeview HD tick equipment has auto pick up/tune of new services , Transmitter ID and MHEG-IC ... which are worth having !

Roll on Freeview HD only!!! NOW
and a move to Only DVB-T2 muxes...
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Old 18-07-2013, 08:28
gomezz
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there is no reason why a T2 MUX can not carry an SD channel.
But every reason why non-DVB-T2 devices cannot decode those SD channels, which is the real point of needing at least one legacy DVB-T1 MUX for the foreseeable future.
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Old 18-07-2013, 08:42
lotrjw
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I am not ... But all the UK wide PSB channels and a few other channels will be HD only ( but perhaps not Ch 5!!!!!!!)

But as at the moment the Comm muxes have sub SD resolution .... it may be reasonable to assume that they will improve .. but not to HD...

Also Freeview HD tick equipment has auto pick up/tune of new services , Transmitter ID and MHEG-IC ... which are worth having !

Roll on Freeview HD only!!! NOW
and a move to Only DVB-T2 muxes...
Could the SD channels on the T2 MUXs be of a higher horizontal resoultion that sees the pixles go squaire so say 1024*576 instead of 720*576, meaning HD TVs get a higher resoultion of SD than non HD TVs, when over HDMI that is!
This would only work for downscaled programs of course, but it would be a vast improvement!
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Old 18-07-2013, 08:51
Winston_1
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Indeed, DVB-T2 receivers should be mandatory. I bought my parents a 24 inch Sony 1920 x 1080 TV last year, but it only has a DVB-T receiver. Crazy for a Full HD panel! Fortunately they use a PVR with it and don't use the TV's internal tuner, but that wasn't the original plan.
Well you bought it for them. You only have yourself to blame.

However I do agree that DVB-T2 should be mandatory for new equipment.
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Old 18-07-2013, 08:52
lotrjw
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But every reason why non-DVB-T2 devices cannot decode those SD channels, which is the real point of needing at least one legacy DVB-T1 MUX for the foreseeable future.
well when the state has provided the relevent help again to those who need it, to switch over to DVB-T2, then how many people would be left on old equipment?
I think that OFCOM could give a change over timetable of say 6 months (which compaired with the last switch over is generous!), this would enable all other people to buy new equipmet at their lesure and Im guessing that for second or third TVs that would end up being a lot later for most people!
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