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Want to know which transmitters will carry extra Freeview HD?


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Old 17-07-2013, 16:05
reslfj
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The point is to provide a migration stategy away from SD so that at some point in the future some of the SD muxes can either be switched off or converted to HD. But this will only happen when enough of the viewing public have DVB-T2 receivers, which they won't bother with if there is nothing to receive. You have to start somewhere, and this can be done economically while reaching around 50% of the population.
DVB-T/MPEG-2 equipment should not be allowed to carry the 'Digital Tick' anymore - IMHO. If DVB-T is less expensive in a shop, it has little to do with production cost and everything to do with (to) smart marketing.
If you will not pay my price - I can at least deliver you an obsolete product.

If consumers want a long lifetime for their new TV set - they shouid not just look at the available signals today. DVB-T2 is no longer just about HD - e.g. the NImux broadcasts only SD channels.

And as someone pointed out, everyone even on Freeview Lite will get one extra HD channel (not sure how reliable the infomation is that it's BBC3).
As reliable as in a news release directly from the BBC.
"BBC Three HD and CBBC HD will use capacity on the BBC’s existing HD multiplex, which has 98.5 per cent coverage of UK homes. BBC News HD, BBC Four HD and CBeebies HD will use new HD capacity, which will cover part of the UK and grow in coverage over time.

Lars
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:16
jj20x
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No money -
This is a reuse of old pre-DSO transmitter hardware - must be written off before the end of 2018.
It is a reuse of old hardware but there is still room to tweak power levels after the service is up and running, it is fairly normal to make adjustments after a service goes live. I'm not saying they will be increased to the same power level as existing services. Fitting 2 national multiplexes onto just 6 frequencies will not be easy, increasing the power levels too much will just make co-channel interference more of a problem.

As for being written off before the end of 2018, the 2018 termination date is just a line in the sand. If 700MHz clearance happens at an early stage, then the new services will have to go at the end of 2018 to make room to relocate COM4, 5 &6. If 700MHz clearance isn't required or happens later, these services could potentially be extended

Do understand - this is a message from the broadcasters and Ofcom to the backward looking (part of the) public about phasing out DVB-T beginning in 2014.

If DVB-T is not phased out - rather soon - DTT will not survive much longer than this decade. DTT must adapt to the newer technologies to stay competetive.
Indeed, it's to stimulate demand for DVB-T2 equipment prior to any forced relocation of COM4-6 onto the 600MHz band, which would have to use DVB-T2 and regional SFNs to match existing coverage.

In Germany their three COM muxes are not available at several/many main TX sites and one COM mux (RTL) is being closed.

Lars
The problem in Germany is even more tricky than here because of the regional nature of broadcasting. Germany has always had a strong, popular FTA satellite service and DTT there simply isn't as popular as it is in the UK. With RTL's changing priorities, it's hardly surprising that they no longer wish to invest in DTT.
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:24
jj20x
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Could it be a boom time for aerial installers in some areas in the next few years as consumers are obliged to replace their aerials - if they're not intending to be wholly dependent on cable, satellite or internet for their future TV needs?!
I've already seen comments from aerial installers suggesting that they see it as an opportunity to get customers to buy new aerials. Obviously, to receive services from an alternative transmitter where their main transmitter won't be carrying the new services.

Let the buyer beware, these multiplexes won't be around for more than a few years!
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:26
technologist
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Germany had a very strong cable TV culture in the west ... And it lasted well into the digital age....
Whilst the easiet way to cover the East / all on reunification was satellite ....
ATT was never very strong and DTT evn less .. So muxes are optimised for mobile / resilient reception...
The Netherlands likewise is cabled ..

Terrestrial broadcasting is the one that has most variation in the world ... As various governments interfere.... And do things politically ....
Left alone in other means the vast majority if the world uses DVB. ...
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:28
technologist
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Let the buyer beware, these multiplexes won't be around for more than a few years!
But they should be looking for wide band as this wil become more Likely to be needed after the 700 MHz reallocation.

But yes remember that the muxes are temporary.
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:41
OwenSmith
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But they should be looking for wide band as this wil become more Likely to be needed after the 700 MHz reallocation.

But yes remember that the muxes are temporary.
And when the temporary muxes go, one or more of the exsting 5 SD muxes will change to HD. That's the entire point of these temporary muxes, to provide a bridge while people get DVB-T2 equipment.
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:43
kasg
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possibly Croydon instead of Crystal Palace in London
Source?
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:47
jj20x
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And when the temporary muxes go, one or more of the exsting 5 SD muxes will change to HD. That's the entire point of these temporary muxes, to provide a bridge while people get DVB-T2 equipment.
Be in no doubt, if 700MHz is cleared all 3 COM muxes will have to operate as DVB-T2 or have severely reduced coverage. The revised frequency plans allow for only the PSB DVB-T muxes to continue as DVB-T.
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Old 17-07-2013, 16:48
jj20x
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It will be Crystal Palace according to Ofcom documents.
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:18
kasg
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It will be Crystal Palace according to Ofcom documents.
OK, so what on earth is the reference to Croydon BBC1 on channel 31 and Croydon BBC2 on channel 37 about in Appendix A of this document?
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:22
technologist
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That says that the transmitter at winter hill comes from Croydon ...
and the ones at black hill come from rumster forest and stockland hill
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:24
OwenSmith
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That says that the transmitter at winter hill comes from Croydon ...
IE. the physical item of equipment which performs the RF amplification.
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:26
kasg
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That says that the transmitter at winter hill comes from Croydon ...
and the ones at black hill come from rumster forest and stockland hill
Right, thanks.
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Old 17-07-2013, 17:27
Greebo
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OK, so what on earth is the reference to Croydon BBC1 on channel 31 and Croydon BBC2 on channel 37 about in Appendix A of this document?
Look at the first column - "site". Those two ex-analog Croydon txs are coming up to Winter Hill. This added complication (and an antenna rotation) will be why Winter Hill isn't coming on line quite as quickly as Crystal Palace which can reuse spare txs that are already onsite.
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:28
David (2)
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But they should be looking for wide band as this wil become more Likely to be needed after the 700 MHz reallocation.

But yes remember that the muxes are temporary.
Not wideband (you don't want to pick up 4g mobile), you need a new Group T aerial.
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Old 17-07-2013, 18:50
OwenSmith
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Not wideband (you don't want to pick up 4g mobile), you need a new Group T aerial.
When did new aerial groups get created? And is it possible to buy one? I probably need a new aerial, but I've been waiting until it is possible to by a wideband that only covers UHF channels 21 to 60. Last time I looked these didn't exist.
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Old 17-07-2013, 19:51
David (2)
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Yep that's the new group T. I think these are only just starting to appear. For years we were told to go wideband but now everyone should have group T. If your one of the many with an old type wideband your at much higher risk of picking up 4g.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:24
scottie55
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You'll be getting BBC3 / CBBC in HD as that will be taking the fifth slot on the current HD mux.
Ah ... a man with good news - thanks for that.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:28
kasg
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Yep that's the new group T. I think these are only just starting to appear. For years we were told to go wideband but now everyone should have group T. If your one of the many with an old type wideband your at much higher risk of picking up 4g.
Unless these aerials actually have filters I don't see how they are going to be particularly effective at rejecting 4G unless they drop off significantly well before channel 60.
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Old 17-07-2013, 20:42
jj20x
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Yep that's the new group T. I think these are only just starting to appear. For years we were told to go wideband but now everyone should have group T. If your one of the many with an old type wideband your at much higher risk of picking up 4g.
It was quite right to recommend wideband aerials when many areas had multiplexes scattered across the full UHF range. Clearly that became a problem when the 800MHz range was cleared, now those aerials will have no protection against 4G signals in that range.

Unfortunately, history will repeat itself if the 700MHz range is cleared. The new, post DSO, full band aerials will have no protection from 4G/5G signals in the 700MHz range.
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Old 17-07-2013, 21:11
elan_vital
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I'd be interested to know how many people would prefer CBBC and BBC4 rather than BBC3 on the existing multiplex.

Might be the fruit of a campaign given the disparate availability.
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Old 17-07-2013, 21:19
Colin_London
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Freeview Lite viewers are not completely stuffed - they get the delights of CBBC & BBC Three in HD (at the expense of BBC Red Button HD.

I wonder if the BBC researched this decision thoroughly enough. Not wanting to generalise too much, but would there not be a higher chance that people living 'in the sticks' who rely on Freeview Lite would be more likely to be BBC Four than BBC Three viewers?
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Old 17-07-2013, 21:22
lotrjw
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Be in no doubt, if 700MHz is cleared all 3 COM muxes will have to operate as DVB-T2 or have severely reduced coverage. The revised frequency plans allow for only the PSB DVB-T muxes to continue as DVB-T.
This is very interseting to note! I also wonder if at that point they will also try and squeeze all BBC channels plus ITV, C4 and C5 in SD onto one MUX PSB 1 then upgrade PSB 2 to DVB-T2 too! In this senario we will only have 1 DVB-T1 MUX left ! and it will only carry the essentual PSB channels! This would give 2 PSB T2 MUXs to carry all PSB channels that are on the 1 PSB 1 DVB-T1 MUX, with the com MUXs carrying everything else!
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Old 17-07-2013, 23:29
reslfj
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Unless these aerials actually have filters I don't see how they are going to be particularly effective at rejecting 4G unless they drop off significantly well before channel 60.
Take a look at these aerials from Triax.
http://www.triax.co.uk/upload/aerialsjuly13.pdf

Lars
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Old 18-07-2013, 00:05
kasg
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Yes, built-in filters and very impressive frequency response graphs.
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