I don't need to prove that people are more important than dogs! I'm afraid that the burden of proof is entirely on the loony people of this world who believe otherwise!

Agree pto. A cage muzzle may be better suited, I only recommend a soft muzzle as that's what I tend to use. Each dog responds differently to the different types.

Again op, I recommend vets first, it could be something simple ad easy fixed.

That's a really good point, we spent years having other people's cast offs who had been made vicious or unpredictable, we managed them well so they never hurt anyone or any other dogs etc. But the time we spent with them has limited our ability to help other rescues who needed homes.

We waited until each biter died before taking on another when if we had spent time on less damaged dogs we could have rehomed several more.

I don't regret any of my dogs but it has to be recognised they limited our ability to help others and limited our lives too.

The late great Duncan was our last ever rescue as experiencing his aggression has put us off taking on any more rescues.

Sad really as there are so many who do need homes.

This is pretty rich, coming from someone who purports to put dogs above humans. I looked up this Cesar Millan, who I had never heard of, and apparently he uses spiked choke chains and electric shock. 'Nuff said. Worse than Barbara Woodhouse even. And yet you support him?

He seems to mesmerise some people to be fair he is fairly charismatic and seems to attract a cult like following.

People want to believe instant fixes and all dogs can be fixed when those who actually understand dogs would never say that.

GibsonGirl is getting a lot of stick here - I'd like to throw my two pence worth in and agree with everything she is saying.

Humans are arrogant to the extreme when it comes to other species - We assume that we have the moral right to kill other animals at will because their behaviour doesn't fit in with our ideas of how they should be. This is just wrong and to be honest - a bit twisted.

Many also conveniently forget that the reason dogs have behavioural problems for the most part is because of humans and their stupidity. Punish them, not the dog.

We are no more important than anything around us. Your ego and superiority complex may tell you otherwise, but you're wrong. All life is precious - regardless of whether it is your 8 year old nephew or your 6 year old Jack Russell.

The OP should do all he can to keep that dog alive, happy and out of trouble. When he decided to become a pet owner, he shouldered a responsibility that too many take for granted - Life changes but you must adapt accordingly.

And the rest of you who talk about 'PTS' or euthanisia like it's some kind of blissful peace for the dog - Stop sugarcoating it and call it for what it is - murder. You call roll a turd in glitter but it's still a turd.


**Edit - I take back the 'everything she says' bit - I am referring to the arrogant human bit!

I will never agree that any dog is more important than a person. A dog that has shown to be a biter and may go on to seriously hurt or even kill a human being should be destroyed and any talk of that being murder is farcical!

People come first always and comparing the life of an 8 year old boy to that of any dog regardless of age is lunacy, is a dangerous attitude and puts lives at risk!

People who came to my classes treating their dogs as equals were told in no uncertain terms that the dog was not equal, if they did not accept that I would tell them that I am not the right trainer for them!

I advocate neither cruelty, negative reinforcement, hitting a dog or using a check chain as a device for punishment. But treating a dog like an equal, do me a favour!

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that humans are arrogant and they have a lot to answer for but you have to accept that society has laws to protect people and animals this dog has broken a law and could be pts. Do I think it is the right decision quite probably as there are very few owners who are responsible enough and know enough about dogs to cope with a fear aggressive dog. A good behaviourist may well help - However and it is a big HOWEVER this dog went straight to a bite which means that is how it will react in future, once a dog relinquishes warning signals for whatever reason its is blooming dangerous and the op does have kids. I for one think the chances of a child ending up dead or with a face transplant are far worse than pts a dog. Which may sound hard but when you meet lovely dogs with nothing wrong with them and know they are going to be killed in a few days you become hardened to it in a way - its wrong and I along with a lot of people advocate change for the better for dogs

If it is murder to you that is fine, but I support a caring euthanasia in animals and would fully support one in humans it is a far more dignifies way to die. I watched my dog be pts and stroked his paw whilst he was lying on a rug, gentle and humane which was far better than what could have happened to him with his brain tumour

He also advocates alpha rolling and dominance which is not putting humans on the same level as dogs so much as above them and assuming a great 'intelligence'.

paul.fisher - where do you sit on this argument given that you think ''Many also conveniently forget that the reason dogs have behavioural problems for the most part is because of humans and their stupidity. Punish them, not the dog.'

Here's some evidence why this fruitcake is wrong
http://thehappiestdog.blogspot.co.uk...-is-wrong.html

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/dogs-in-danger.html

http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/...sar-millan.htm


There are many others sadly.

I pointed te above out to Gg previously, she chose to ignore it.

The problem with bite cases is 'next time' when ever there is a next time it is almost always more severe.

Op I don't want to scare you and wholeheartedly believe in giving any dog a chance, so pls go to the vets first and pm me for a behavioural recommendation, them go from there

Oh ok. A dog 'may' bite you so you 'can' kill it. You sound lovely.

With an attitude like that, I'd choose my dogs over you any day of the week.

No. Pto is saying that a dog that HAS bitten is likely to do so again, and that pts is sometimes the last option.

No one is saying the op should march the dog to the vets instantly for euthanasia. There are options, but one of these options is that the dog is euthanised, especially if she is fear aggressive as it escalates quickly.

I love my dogs and they mean the world to me, if I was in the same situation and it was only me at risk, I'd take that chance, however between my kids and the dog? No contest, sorry but there's not. At least I'm honest about it. It's nature, there are no unselfish species out there, the whole aim of the game is the survival of your genes, which is why you get altruism and things like elephants staying with dying young etc, but you'll not see an elephant staying with a rhino because its stuck in the mud. No species will help another species (and rarely help another unrelated individual unless there is a mutual reciprocation type set up).

No what we are saying is a dog attacked someone in public resulting in injury which is against the law and can be a death penalty for said dog and the owner is lucky that has not happened.

What I am saying is this dog is fear aggressive and with little or no warning signals which is a recipe for disaster if handled wrongly but like gg you seem to be missing these points

Why does the ownership of a pet make some people swivel eyed lunatics? A dog is just a dog. We have them to do a job. If the dog starts biting unpredictably then you kill it. Why on earth would you put a human at risk? Those that are against this are not fit to own a dog and are extremely irresponsible.

so when that same dog attacks a child and permanently marks their face (if they are lucky enough to get away with just wounds)..you will feel no guilt at all at not reporting the dog being a danger and still being walked off lead?..just makes you part of the problem because when something more serious happens the dog will be PTS unfortunately someone will have to suffer the consequences because of your selfishness.

What worries me is this will eventually lead to the responsible owners amongst us having laws passed making our dog ownership more difficult, the irresponsible owners don't obey the laws anyway so won't make a jot of difference to them.

I agree..which is why when incidents happen
1) dog on dog
2) dog on person
3) person on dog
they need to be reported..someone walking with a dog off lead if the dog attacks another dog for example should have a tick against their name..another report of same person,same incident then action taken..too little responsibility taken by irresponsible owners..but also silly action of not reporting incidents from people who value the attacking dog above any other victim who may fall prey to them..

Unfortunately, its not a question of valuing the dog above the victim, in this case it was the loony notion that the poster needed proof that people came first and subsequent posters who believe that euthanasia after a significant biting incident/attack is murder using the analogy that we wouldn't put a child to sleep if it attacked someone. Anyway, gg isn't around to defend herself anymore so maybe we shouldn't keep calling her on it!

We have a dog who is a lovely little thing but is a resource guarded (to other dogs, not people) he was renamed successfully and we told the owners not to introduce him to other dogs until he was settled and when they did to ensure the space was clear of food and toys. They ignored both pieces of advice and he's back within 48 hours having attacked a neighbours dog. The damage was severe and it doesn't look good for our guy, we are going to dog test him ourselves, but it's touch and go here for him, as others have said - next time it could be a child or e en another dog who might not survive.

I wish you success bazaar but I am not hopeful.

We had dogs like this and the right home is what they need, with people who will keep the dog away from others. I won't pretend it's an easy life though as I said previously I couldn't do it again.

Thanks for that. The "boot camp" I am looking at was a 3 week course. do you mind me asking where the camp you sent your dogs to was?

His is the problem, we thought we had the right home but people do what they want, regardless of our warnings! He's such a lovely little thing too.

I was about to say where does it say that I have had him since 2-3 months but I realise on my first post I said he will be 2 in nov

MYMISTAKE he will be 3 in nov when we got him he was just over a year old. it was known that he hadn't been socialised with other dogs and that was "his problem"

please see above

Ok

so I know it looks like I have just lit the touch paper and walked away.

The reason I haven't been back is because I had jasper for the weekend.

we went out for quite a few walks and although we carried the cage muzzle we didn't use it.

Now before I get flamed I will also say that for a lot of the walk he was off the lead.

so those that want to slate me go ahead and do so now because what I say next will be wrong anyway.

we live in a rural area and where we walk there are very few people.

Jasper is ball obsessed and his main love of life is fetching the ball. so the muzzele would stop that and I believe would make him more stressed and frustrated

We walk in areas where we can see other people coming from afar. if these people have a dog we call him back ( he comes) and he is put on his lead. nine times out of ten the other dog is off the lead. As soon as we can we tell the other owner that he is not good with other dogs- youd be amazed the amount of owners who say " that's ok my dogs as nice as pie" or similar and then let their dogs carry on wandering over to jasper. ( I have been advised that as I have my dog on the short lead and the other dog is roaming off lead that the other dog s "not under control" not that makes real difference)- we then sooth and softly talk to jasper and stroke his neck and give him his ball. he has gone from barking and straining on the lead ( when we first got him) to the occasional growl when the dogs get to close ( sniffing his bum close).

in fact on sunday 4 jack russels were running around between his legs etc and he had the merest of growls ( definitely not an aggressive growl)

Again with people he is fine
if someone "creeps up on him and scares him then yes he does react but when I have him I try to make sure that doesn't happen.

Yes we do have insurance and yes it does cover behavioural treatment so I intend to follow that up as with the forums.

I know if I am hard faced I should probably have him sent back to the rescue centre or pts but if you saw the fear in my youngests face when we went for a walk and then I found out that he was petrified that if jasper so much as barked at another dog or person he would be taken away, then maybe you would understand why I want to try everything first.