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Moffat admits he has lied about casting for a few months on the 50th


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Old 22-07-2013, 16:02
allen_who
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There are The Silents (the species) and The Silence (the cult). The cult, as we know, contains members of all different species, apparently even including humans. And they're the ones dedicated to killing the Doctor. No problem there.
I must have missed an episode of Doctor Who somewhere... I get the first bit of that but the rest seems to be made up nonsense ...... unless you can tell me the scene to watch that is..?
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Old 22-07-2013, 16:04
Laura_Amanda
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I must have missed an episode of Doctor Who somewhere... I get the first bit of that but the rest seems to be made up nonsense ...... unless you can tell me the scene to watch that is..?
Lets kill hitler I believe then the wedding of river song shows humans/humanoids who work with the silence.
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Old 23-07-2013, 01:24
So 3008
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No chance. It was already explained. Just badly.
Thesilencedidit.
If it was the Silence, I think it was terribly explained. Sure you can put two and two together - a species called the Silence later appear on a mission to kill the Doctor, so perhaps the events of The Big Bang was their first attempt - but not even our favourite Timelord connects the two events together onscreen. In fact I don't think the exploding TARDIS was mentioned once during the whole of Series Six. The Doctor doesn't mention it. The Silence don't take credit for it or imply they had anything to do with it. All it would have taken was one line of dialogue but annoyingly, nothing.
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Old 23-07-2013, 10:11
johnnysaucepn
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I must have missed an episode of Doctor Who somewhere... I get the first bit of that but the rest seems to be made up nonsense ...... unless you can tell me the scene to watch that is..?
I'm not sure which part you're confused about. Let's see if I can find some stuff in the transcripts.

Let's Kill Hitler:
TESELECTA AMY moves around to face MELODY.

TESELECTA AMY:
You killed the Doctor on the orders of the movement known as the Silence and Academy of the Question. You accept and know this to be true?
DOCTOR:
Question. I'm dying... who wants me dead?

TESELECTA AMY:
The Silence.

DOCTOR:
What is the Silence? Why is it called that? What does it mean?

TESELECTA AMY:
The Silence is not a species. It is a religious order, or movement. Their core belief is that silence will fall when the question is asked.

DOCTOR:
What question?

TESELECTA AMY:
The first question. The oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight.
Wedding of River Song:
DOCTOR:
I need to know about the Silence.

DORIUM:
Oh. A religious order of great power and discretion. The sentinels of history, as they like to call themselves.

DOCTOR:
And they want me dead.

DORIUM:
No, not really. They just don't want you to remain alive.

DOCTOR:
That's OK. I was worried for a minute there.

DORIUM:
You're a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.
CHURCHILL:
I don't understand.

DOCTOR:
The creatures that lead the Silence. Remarkable beings...they're memory-proof.
And we know that characters like the space-Viking and Kovarian work for the Silence, although it's not entirely clear whether they are considered part of the order, or whether only the species themselves are part of the order. Either way, there's no reason the voice in the TARDIS needs to be one of the Silent aliens.
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Old 23-07-2013, 12:10
kyllerbuzcut
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Here's my take on it....



I took the voice to be a message sent to the tardis, and it blew up because the doctor was erased from the universe ( lets call it universe A). Because he no longer existed due to being in the pandorica this caused a massive paradox centring on the tardis ( which also should not exist now).
This also caused the cracks in the first place, which began 'eating' the universe.

As the universe disappeared a bit at a time the only thing left was the tardis at the middle, acting like a surrogate sun for earth in the final days of that universe. The team managed to arrange for the doctor to be able to pilot the pandorica into the tardis explosion, kickstarting a new big bang which then filed the new universe ( universe B) with the information contained inside the pandorica. The only thinking missing was supposed to be the doctor, however there were enough 'holes' left for him to be reconstructed ( see the last cyberman episode for Mr Clever telling him that he could be reconstructed by the holes he had left. The doctor then said he'd have to work on fixing that- will that turn out to be a good or bad thing?). He managed to create a few holes for himself before he disappeared from universe A by talking to Amy at various points, plus some of the other events that had gone on throughout the series. this also explains why River was able to show up there too, as she had 'been remembered back into existence' ( as someone once put it-wrongly) in a similar way. The holes that were there were used to reconstruct her ( and the missing ducks from the duck pond etc.)


So the question should not be 'Who blew up the Tardis' because that was an after effect of something else- the Doctor being put in the Pandorica. The question is 'Who was behind the alliance to put him in there?'

And I think we are pretty sure it was the silence which engineered that one.

Ok I need to go have a lie down now lol.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:10
johnnysaucepn
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Here's my take on it....

I took the voice to be a message sent to the tardis, and it blew up because the doctor was erased from the universe ( lets call it universe A). Because he no longer existed due to being in the pandorica this caused a massive paradox centring on the tardis ( which also should not exist now).

[...]
So the question should not be 'Who blew up the Tardis' because that was an after effect of something else- the Doctor being put in the Pandorica.
I don't think there's anything in the episode to support that - firstly, the Pandorica doesn't erase or remove anything from the fabric of the universe, just isolates it, just like any other prison really. It's not paradoxical to be stuck in a box. The whole episode hinges around the Pandorica having a restoration field designed precisely to keep the prisoner alive and well, and actually preserve part of the universe.

Furthermore, it doesn't make narrative sense that the TARDIS should explode because of the Doctor being put in the Pandorica, since the Doctor is only put into the Pandorica because the TARDIS had exploded. You can argue that on a technical front it could be considered no different from any other paradox, but if it undermines the content of the entire series, I would discount it.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:18
kyllerbuzcut
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That's why they wanted him in there though - to erase him from history. They said that in the finale.

It also came out that the pandorica contained within all the information collected from the universe. So that things could be reconstructed from it ( it's why the fossil daleks came 'back to life',)

It was designed to allow everything in the universe to be preserved and kept running despite the prisoner being removed from it all.
(I think that's the real puzzling question here- how can it do all that?)

It makes sense that they THOUGHT the Doctor caused the cracks somehow, so the alliance were persuaded to get together to put him inside the pandorica to stop that happening. They didn't know that was the very thing that caused the cracks. For them it was a self fulfilling prophecy. The mastermind behind it all- did they know? and tell the alliance to do it deliberately, or did they also not know?
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:21
Joe_Zel
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Mmmm never bought that myself. That voice in the Tardis 'Silence will fall...' that wasn't a Silence who said that... who in the hell was it
Maybe they hadn't properly decided on how the Silence would sound until series 6. Not every production error, small inconsistency means something greater.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:28
kyllerbuzcut
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Maybe they hadn't properly decided on how the Silence would sound until series 6. Not every production error, small inconsistency means something greater.
Now that's crazy talk
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:52
sebbie3000
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That's why they wanted him in there though - to erase him from history. They said that in the finale.

It also came out that the pandorica contained within all the information collected from the universe. So that things could be reconstructed from it ( it's why the fossil daleks came 'back to life',)

It was designed to allow everything in the universe to be preserved and kept running despite the prisoner being removed from it all.
(I think that's the real puzzling question here- how can it do all that?)

It makes sense that they THOUGHT the Doctor caused the cracks somehow, so the alliance were persuaded to get together to put him inside the pandorica to stop that happening. They didn't know that was the very thing that caused the cracks. For them it was a self fulfilling prophecy. The mastermind behind it all- did they know? and tell the alliance to do it deliberately, or did they also not know?
Well, because that's only a question for your hypothesis, of which the actual happenings don't support. The Pandorica categorically did not remove anyone/thing from the universe. Inside, it had a restoration field, to keep the prisoner alive for the entirety of their custodial sentence. This restoration field had the capabilities of storing just enough of the universe to reboot it.

We know the Pandorica's capabilities as they were shown, anything else is guesswork, with no real basis from the show. It kept Amy on the point of death until it could get the DNA sample from a younger version. It was a restoration field, only. The reason the prisoners stayed inside was because it was inescapable, not keeping the inhabitant out of the universe. That was explained as much.

Unless you ascribe to that viewpoint - which in my mind stretches the events into an I'll-fitting surmise -then that question you pose is entirely irrelevant.
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Old 23-07-2013, 14:13
kyllerbuzcut
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But that's what it did. It was in the episode. It was built to remove its prisoners from the universe.
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Old 23-07-2013, 14:52
sebbie3000
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But that's what it did. It was in the episode. It was built to remove its prisoners from the universe.
Really? It was mentioned to have a stasis field, and a restoration field, but there's not a mention of removing anything from the universe as far as I remember. That was what the crack did.
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Old 23-07-2013, 14:57
Laura_Amanda
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But that's what it did. It was in the episode. It was built to remove its prisoners from the universe.
It didn't remove Amy? Just kept her body alive. The cracks removed parts of existence aka rory, the doctor, Amy's parents...

Even in journey to the center of the tardis it was used and the time stream of the tardis being salvaged was removed(yet faintly remembered in tnotd)
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Old 23-07-2013, 16:40
kyllerbuzcut
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The universe starts removing traces of him as soon as he gets put in it the first time. The tardis tries as much as it can to stall this, but around 2000 years later, while the whole rest of the universe has gradually been disappearing ( no stars in the sky), after acting as a sun for the earth, providing light and warmth, it is finally going to succumb to the whole paradox and explode/implode and cause all the cracks.

The whole show since Moffat took over has been about timey wimey things that don't happen in the correct order. Just because the tardis exploding at point A, causing an effect at point B (cracks in space and time due to a massive paradox), doesn't mean that point A happened before point B, or vice versa. It's a time machine, if it explodes now, this minute, the resulting impact of the explosion could be felt next week, next year or 100 years ago. OR all of them at the same time.

The pandorica also was not finally sealed until the moment when the doctor flew it into the tardis explosion. This is the point at which it really all comes from. The cracks destroying universe A and the big bang creating universe B.
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Old 23-07-2013, 16:58
Laura_Amanda
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The universe starts removing traces of him as soon as he gets put in it the first time. The tardis tries as much as it can to stall this, but around 2000 years later, while the whole rest of the universe has gradually been disappearing ( no stars in the sky), after acting as a sun for the earth, providing light and warmth, it is finally going to succumb to the whole paradox and explode/implode and cause all the cracks.

The whole show since Moffat took over has been about timey wimey things that don't happen in the correct order. Just because the tardis exploding at point A, causing an effect at point B (cracks in space and time due to a massive paradox), doesn't mean that point A happened before point B, or vice versa. It's a time machine, if it explodes now, this minute, the resulting impact of the explosion could be felt next week, next year or 100 years ago. OR all of them at the same time.

The pandorica also was not finally sealed until the moment when the doctor flew it into the tardis explosion. This is the point at which it really all comes from. The cracks destroying universe A and the big bang creating universe B.




No. The tardis caused this. The reason the events occurred while the doctor was in the pandorica was because the alliance thought only the doctor could fly the tardis (when in fact it was river who was inside the blowing up tardis. When in fact the pandorica actually healed the universe and the cracks by flying the pandorica into the tardis to allow the tardis to spread the remainder of the echoes of the universe into the cracks to seal them.

http://youtu.be/AeywW19kH3o

http://youtu.be/oJBPFCtOJsU
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:09
allen_who
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Sorrry but these are all old arguments I've seen many times before... ive read nothin that convinces me who blew it up... tenuous at best
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:12
kyllerbuzcut
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No. The tardis caused this. The reason the events occurred while the doctor was in the pandorica was because the alliance thought only the doctor could fly the tardis (when in fact it was river who was inside the blowing up tardis. When in fact the pandorica actually healed the universe and the cracks by flying the pandorica into the tardis to allow the tardis to spread the remainder of the echoes of the universe into the cracks to seal them.

http://youtu.be/AeywW19kH3o

http://youtu.be/oJBPFCtOJsU
What the first video shows is that what you say is what the alliance THOUGHT was going to happen. And you are right it was the tardis exploding that caused it. (that's been my argument all along). The doctor even said this is what would happen to the tardis with him not there- in this video - in his reply to the alliance.
thanks for finding that

In the second video Amy also says that the Doctor wont come back into existence after big bang 2 because he is going into the pandorica.

Then after he flies in and the pandorica seals and the big bang is just at the moment it is starting , I think somehow the tardis manages to allow him to go back through his past actions and leave a few holes to be reconstructed from after the new big bang.
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:12
johnnysaucepn
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That's why they wanted him in there though - to erase him from history. They said that in the finale.

It also came out that the pandorica contained within all the information collected from the universe. So that things could be reconstructed from it ( it's why the fossil daleks came 'back to life',)
No, it just contained a sample of the universe, preserved while the rest of the universe was destroyed.

It was designed to allow everything in the universe to be preserved and kept running despite the prisoner being removed from it all.
(I think that's the real puzzling question here- how can it do all that?)
No, that's the wrong way round. It was designed to lock away the Doctor because they thought he was responsible for the destruction. It wasn't a wibbly-wobbly paradox machine.

The universe starts removing traces of him as soon as he gets put in it the first time. The tardis tries as much as it can to stall this, but around 2000 years later, while the whole rest of the universe has gradually been disappearing ( no stars in the sky), after acting as a sun for the earth, providing light and warmth, it is finally going to succumb to the whole paradox and explode/implode and cause all the cracks.
No, the destruction was already happening. The explosion had already happened, at at particular point in time and space, and the cracks were a result of that. The TARDIS was at the epicentre of the explosion, the eye of the storm, and was the last thing to be consumed.
The pandorica also was not finally sealed until the moment when the doctor flew it into the tardis explosion. This is the point at which it really all comes from. The cracks destroying universe A and the big bang creating universe B.
Flying it into the TARDIS explosion has the absolute opposite effect to what you describe.

Regardless of how you read the temporal order of things, from a narrative point of view, the TARDIS exploding is what causes the cracks to occur, which is what causes the Alliance to form.

Okay, let's hit the quotes. To save annoying people, let's put it in spoiler tags:
Spoiler
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:14
kyllerbuzcut
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Sorrry but these are all old arguments I've seen many times before... ive read nothin that convinces me who blew it up... tenuous at best
The mastermind behind it all might be revealed in the anniversary special. There's been a lot of hints that Moffat has been weaving stuff all through since he took over, and the answers will come then.

there's even a theory that it has all been the work of Omega. I don't know if that is true but I suppose it is possible, with all the greek symbols all over the place etc.
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:28
allen_who
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I've a feelin it will all be cleared up then myself... think omega along with daleks and zygon would be too much thou...
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Old 23-07-2013, 17:30
kyllerbuzcut
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No, it just contained a sample of the universe, preserved while the rest of the universe was destroyed.

Ok a SAMPLE of the universe but yes- it was to preserve the universe, or parts of it, enough to enable reconstruction

No, that's the wrong way round. It was designed to lock away the Doctor because they thought he was responsible for the destruction. It wasn't a wibbly-wobbly paradox machine.
Yes- it was designed to lock away the doctor, and the reason they needed bits of the universe in there was to try and ensure things would continue while he wasn't there. ( obviously it didn't work that way but they believed it would).

No, the destruction was already happening. The explosion had already happened, at at particular point in time and space, and the cracks were a result of that. The TARDIS was at the epicentre of the explosion, the eye of the storm, and was the last thing to be consumed.
exactly

Flying it into the TARDIS explosion has the absolute opposite effect to what you describe.
So we didn't have a big bang 2 which re-created the universe then? That is exactly what happened. The doctor even calls it 'big bang 2' himself.

Regardless of how you read the temporal order of things, from a narrative point of view, the TARDIS exploding is what causes the cracks to occur, which is what causes the Alliance to form.
yes eactly ...which causes the alliance to put the doctor in the pandorica because the think (someone told them?) the doctor causes the cracks, which causes the tardis to explode, causing the crascks. Perfectly resolved except for who kickstarted the rumour about the doctor causing the cracks.

Okay, let's hit the quotes. To save annoying people, let's put it in spoiler tags:
It is a pleasure discussing/debating with you.

(In that last post- Didn't you just help to prove what I've been saying? )

You are saying no to my things, then going on to say how they are right, I think.

I will keep this out of spoiler tags because it's been 3 years- so sorry anyone who's reading, but if you haven't seen this yet and are worried about spoilers then you shouldn't be reading a discussion about what blew up the tardis ( I can just imagine someone saying "what? the tardis blows up?") :

RIVER:
So all the cracks in time will close, but he'll be on the wrong side... Trapped in the never-space, the void between the worlds. All memory of him will be purged from the universe. He will never have been born. Now, please. He wants to talk to you before he goes.

That and Amy saying he will not be reconstructed when the pandorica seals is what I am basing that part of my little theory on.
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Old 23-07-2013, 19:00
sebbie3000
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It is a pleasure discussing/debating with you.

(In that last post- Didn't you just help to prove what I've been saying? )

You are saying no to my things, then going on to say how they are right, I think.

I will keep this out of spoiler tags because it's been 3 years- so sorry anyone who's reading, but if you haven't seen this yet and are worried about spoilers then you shouldn't be reading a discussion about what blew up the tardis ( I can just imagine someone saying "what? the tardis blows up?") :

RIVER:
So all the cracks in time will close, but he'll be on the wrong side... Trapped in the never-space, the void between the worlds. All memory of him will be purged from the universe. He will never have been born. Now, please. He wants to talk to you before he goes.

That and Amy saying he will not be reconstructed when the pandorica seals is what I am basing that part of my little theory on.
Where do you get the idea the Pandorica stored atoms on purpose? It has atoms inside because it was opened. Those atoms are 'stored' only due to there being a stasis field inside (therefore not 'stored' but 'preserved'). It's not a repository, it is a box that opened and let in atmosphere. And that is what they used to kickstart the Big Bang 2.

Th Pandorica doesn't seal. It has been blown up. The cracks have been sealed by the reboot, stopping the TARDIS from ever having blown up, and as was pointed out throughout the series, the cracks caused people and things to disappear. That statement you built your theory on has nothing to do with anything being in the Pandorica. It was about the cracks being fixed. And what was the phrase you have attributed to Amy? I don't remember her saying any such thing.
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Old 23-07-2013, 19:51
TenthPlanet
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Aye, one of the first things Moff 'announced' when he took charge was that there wouldn't be any returning villains in Series 5 - only for the Daleks, Weeping Angels, Silurians, Autons, Sontarans, Cybermen, Sycorax, Hoix, Uvodni, Blowfish, Judoon, Weevils and even originally a plan for Meglos to appear!
Meglos!? Seriously?! Why the heck would they consider that? I don't think even Big Finish have done a 'Return of Meglos' story yet!
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Old 23-07-2013, 20:00
SpringheelJack
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So, I think given circumstancial evidence, the following will return, now that Moffat's admitted he's lied:

- John Barrowman back as Jack - given his This Morning slip,
- At least one classic Doctor is back - given the nudge, nudge, wink, wink from the RT,
- And Alex Kingston as a pre-TNotD River Song, given she knows "all his faces" (Time of the Angels).

Anymore for anymore?
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Old 23-07-2013, 20:08
SilenceWillFall
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So, I think given circumstancial evidence, the following will return, now that Moffat's admitted he's lied:

- John Barrowman back as Jack - given his This Morning slip,
- At least one classic Doctor is back - given the nudge, nudge, wink, wink from the RT,
- And Alex Kingston as a pre-TNotD River Song, given she knows "all his faces" (Time of the Angels).

Anymore for anymore?
Whats slip?

As for Alex/River, she said back in series 4 that she had pictures of all of the Doctor's faces. I don't see how this makes her being in the 50th anymore likely?
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